Mastering Communication and Relationship Dynamics in Leadership

Unlock the secrets to powerful leadership and transformative relationships with Yana Stam's insights from the Access Ideas podcast. Our conversation unveils the critical role of listening in fostering trust and forming tight-knit teams capable of exceptional performance. By valuing and recognizing the diverse perspectives of others, leaders can create a harmonious balance between autonomy and accountability, shaping an environment that nurtures growth and self-reflection. Journey with us through personal stories that bring to light the art of strengths calibration and the continuous evolution required in leadership.

Have you ever considered the profound influence of language, tone, and style in connecting with your team? This episode illuminates the nuances of leadership communication, emphasizing active listening as a cornerstone for problem-solving and understanding your team's unique needs. We dissect the importance of invitational prompts, encouraging team members to share their expectations and experiences, which provides invaluable insights into their vision of effective leadership. Furthermore, we tackle the delicate practice of 'breaking and rebuilding' strengths, a strategy that pushes us beyond our comfort zones for personal and professional advancement.

In a landscape where maintaining direction without stifling creativity is the golden rule, we explore how leaders can engineer 'constructive conflict' to spark innovation and drive team cohesion. The discussion pivots to the careful orchestration of challenges that stretch capabilities while ensuring they remain achievable. As you listen, consider how these strategies might reshape your approach to leadership and teamwork. Join us for an episode brimming with transformative ideas that will empower you to lead with empathy, adaptability, and a deep understanding of your team's dynamics.

You are invited to join Leadership Vision Online, free to the next 150 members! This new community allows you to connect with like-valued individuals, network, and learn from others while elevating your leadership skills through exclusive resources, live events, Q&As, workshops, and member-led discussions.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Listening is a huge contributor to trust. The ability for someone to trust you, I think, really stems from your willingness to listen to them and, yes, by that listening it's almost like you're you're. You're saying it's okay to be close, you know it's okay to share and, um, how many people do we know are really great listeners?

Speaker 3: 0:26

Hello everyone, it's Nathan Freeberg and today on the leadership vision podcast, we bring you the second part of a fascinating two episodes series which originally aired as just one episode on the access ideas podcast. Now you can find the link to that in the show notes If you want to go back and listen to the first episode or find access ideas if you haven't already done that. But by just a quick way to set things up here, we had the pleasure of being interviewed by Yana Stam, the host of access ideas, for a thought provoking dialogue about the nuances of leadership, the dynamics of communication, the intricate nature of trust, some great reflections on strength and a plethora of other things. It was a little bit wide ranging, but it was a lot of fun. I think you're going to enjoy it. Now the access ideas podcast explores culture, psychology, well-being and even leadership through expert interviews and discussions. That show offers deep insights that I think you're going to really find valuable. Yana is a great interviewer and we enjoyed being on the other end of the podcast recording process. She just asked some great questions and was really well prepared and, like I said, you can go back and listen to that entire episode on her podcast wherever you find your podcast, but in this episode today, what I've done is I've edited the second part of this to dive into the realm of effective communication, the significance of trust, both in leadership and in our personal lives, and also the art of relationship building and team dynamics. Brian and Dr Linda Schubering shed some light on how listening shapes trust and forms the cornerstone of meaningful connections. I think we all know this, but it's a helpful reminder, and Linda articulates that it's about giving value, shout outs and recognizing the lived values in others, encapsulating kind of the essence of appreciative leadership styles.

Speaker 3: 2:10

We also explore the intricate balance between autonomy and accountability with teams. That's a hugely important thing. Brian talks about how autonomy and accountability foster a healthy, productive work environment, but you need both of those things and this conversation that you're about to hear today. It really segues into the delicate art of creating challenges and difficulties in team settings. You want to aim to push boundaries while also maintaining a supportive atmosphere. You want to give people things that are just just barely within or just barely beyond their reach to help them grow, but you don't want them to fail.

Speaker 3: 2:43

We also bring an additional layer to a discussion, emphasizing the continuous journey, the ongoing, the unending journey, maybe, of self-reflection and growth and leadership. We really encourage you to consider how do your strengths serve you and when might they need calibration? We also talk about strengths breaking how. Sometimes that's something we do intentional, sometimes that's not that. I really think you're going to get a lot of value out of that part specifically. Now, stay tuned as we unravel these themes, fostering a space for learning and growth, right here on the leadership vision podcast. You are listening to the leadership vision podcast, our show helping you build positive team culture. Our consulting firm has been doing this for the past 25 years so that people are mentally engaged and emotionally healthy. All right, now on to the episode. Yeah, I'm curious. Your day job is a communications manager, yes, which I imagine involves just as much, if not more, listening than communicating, definitely To make sure that message is clear.

Speaker 2: 3:41

So how have you?

Speaker 2: 3:42

experienced some of these things in your leadership, but in your role and what you do, well, it was really interesting what you were mentioning Linda about telling our stories and listening to ourselves, because it reminded me of something that Nathan had said on one of your episodes about ideation and how every time you tell a story, you are making sense of it a little bit better. And this is what I do and one of my strengths in the Clifton Strengths is ideation. So no surprise. But I notice that when I talk to different friends or family members and I tell them a story, I'm contextualizing, of course, because I'm thinking about who that person is, what will they care about, what will be poignant or funny to them. And then I come away from it and I think, oh, I'm not really upset about this incident and maybe I started out being upset. Now I kind of see it in more of a humorous light or I might see it in with more insight.

Speaker 2: 4:38

So in my role when I'm developing communications, so often what I'm listening for is not necessarily the directive like write this communication about this topic. It's what are the values underlining that communication? How is that leader establishing trust? What is that leadership? How is that leadership establishing trust? Or building a connection with their team, even if they are overseeing thousands of people that they'll never get to meet personally. What can we use in terms of language and tone and style that is going to facilitate a connection? And that's where I think the stereotypes of so much of communication is body language, it's nonverbal, it's not written. But when we're limited to that, when we're limited to verbal or written, have to think so carefully about what we're going to include and what we're going to give weight to. So I absolutely think about that every day.

Speaker 2: 5:36

And going back to the listening as a superpower idea, it is fundamental for establishing trust, because so often people just want to say their story and they don't get the chance. And especially when you get to people who are harried or just so overrun and they just they literally don't have time to think, giving them space to speak, it can make the difference between them understanding what they want and working through a problem, versus giving me something that is sort of a half-baked idea and then hoping that I'm going to solve it. So often in communications it's like I don't know what to do, but can you just make something up, and so the listening pieces is sometimes more of active and facilitating that approach. Have you seen that too with the clients that you work with? Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 6:29

Yeah, every day yeah that is overwhelmingly true, because I got spun up in how you're describing that in all the examples I have, because what I'm hearing is, you know, the the patience to listen to someone explain, and the more they talk, the more they express themselves, the more you're picking up. I believe that what you're demonstrating in your listening is the more capacity that you have to hear, the more you're going to learn, because sometimes leaders are listening for one specific thing when they're listening to someone communicate and they're waiting for that one thing to be said so you can go on to the next thing and they aren't really hearing what the other person is saying. And, like you're saying, yana, if a person truly is working it out as they're speaking, you know it isn't common upon the listener to let them run with it until they figured out and to not be, you know, judgmental or too much bias in the process.

Speaker 4: 7:25

And I'm just wondering in your work, if, if you notice when people start to spin like we've they've said it, now they're saying it a different way, and they're saying it louder or more intense, or they might use the same example with more our emotions. And so for us, when, when we're hearing and really trying to listen to someone and we see some of the patterns, we'll we'll just call a time out and we'll just say do you know that you said this five times?

Speaker 4: 7:54

Did you know that and we just hold a mirror. Hold a mirror by way of either this is really important or you're just trying to work it out Now. Sometimes people will say, oh, I'm a verbal processor, so thank you for giving me just a chance to to get it out, because maybe it's not a big deal at all. So hearing you repeat back to me what I, what I said, really, you know, makes me realize that I, that it isn't that big a deal. And then there are times where, like I don't even know that I said it a bunch of times. I thought I would, I just said it once.

Speaker 1: 8:29

So but what Linda is talking about is just a lot of those individuals, those individual skills that leaders can pick up to know how they listen best. Because for Linda and I since this is such a big part of our, our businesses, having these conversations where we don't really do any of the talking it's how do we listen? And to really embrace what it is that we're looking for. Listening for that provides the best environment for a conversation to learn about somebody else, and I believe that every leader is different in what it is that they're listening for, how they're listening, and I think it's really well worth someone's time to pay attention to some of those instincts that they have in how they they listen.

Speaker 2: 9:14

Yeah, and maybe you can pivot to the next topic based on that, that idea of intentionally building relationships with your instincts and and what you're picking up on. This is the second piece in building trust within teams and groups. Can you expand on that a little bit based on what you've said?

Speaker 1: 10:08

People instinctively build and lead teams the way they want to build and lead teams and that's individual focused. Compared to leaders that build teams based on the needs of the individuals on the team, that takes longer.

Speaker 2: 10:28

Way longer.

Speaker 1: 10:31

But to you know, not to the fault of the leader, but but like attracts, like. So a leader is going to lead towards that which is known, and they usually start that way and then they bring a similar breaks down, because once they begin to lead, they begin to see really how different, distinct and unique a group is. And that's when a leader typically finds out I'm not sure what I'm doing now Like I've never led a team that is this diverse. I've never led a team that is this dissimilar than me. And the longer you lead, the more you're going to realize how different people's perspectives don't align with you, their work experiences don't align with leader, their cultural experiences don't align with the, with the leader, and these will all then become roadblocks. And so how is it that we can really start by understanding what are our unique attributes, that we're looking for, that we're trying to lead with, and then ask ourselves what does this team need? And more than likely it may, they may need you to ask for help.

Speaker 4: 11:40

A tip and trick that we learned from one leader was to take a learning posture with your team. Ask each team member to teach you something. Give them the power. Give them the power, give them the teacher status, the leader status, to enlighten you Now as as a follower, sometimes it's a well. I thought you need to know what to do. But leaders listen, but they also learn and they teach and their the learning is definitely ongoing, and so I really liked, I liked that adaptation and opportunities.

Speaker 2: 12:16

So, Linda is part of that having the chance to be on the receiving end and seeing what somebody's teaching style is like and then understanding. Aha, this is how this person learns, and then maybe that's how I need to work with them. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 12:30

So, yeah, so secretly, it's really complex and so. But allowing someone to demonstrate their teaching style, demonstrate their learning style, demonstrate how direct they are, or how they wind around and tell you some emotional stories and grab your heartstrings and make you cry, or whatever it is, I think there's this opportunity for a leader to engender some trust. To that. I trust you and I trust that you have a voice. I trust that you are part of this team because you have value to bring to the table and, yeah, leaders can get some insight on. Oh, this is what this person needs. The other person, they're not going to need that, they're not going to need me to walk around with them.

Speaker 2: 13:20

They can just also it's also a point of vulnerability, right? Because if you're learning something and you genuinely don't know how to do it and you're the leader and you're asking your team to teach you, you're putting yourself in their position, essentially, and saying, hey, I'm trusting you to teach me this.

Speaker 4: 13:36

Yes, yeah, that's so good.

Speaker 1: 13:38

And there are so many different ways that we invite leaders to ask these types of prompts, and some of these prompts are, you know to ask. So, instead of saying can you teach me, it's asking someone tell me a story about your best experience on a team. They kind of let them unpack that Share with me a time when you loved working with a leader. What was that leader like? Who was it? How old were you? When did you feel like you were a chief contributor to a team?

Speaker 1: 14:08

You know, just like these kind of invitational prompts that allow people to tell a story when they were at their best, when they felt belonging on a team, they felt productive, because in their story, in their response, you can learn a lot about what they're expecting from a quote unquote good leader or a great team experience. And we asked that question a lot about the sharing of a team experience where you felt like you were partnered well with someone, where you had a significant contribution to a positive outcome, where you were led well by someone. Share those stories with us. You can see people's faces light up and they get all excited to share and that's where the learning happens is like, oh, I had no idea that you wanted to partner with someone who didn't think like you. You know like these are all learnings that happen in our conversations.

Speaker 4: 14:57

And we've had. We've had leaders say like I just think that he doesn't know how to be led. You know, they're complaining a little bit about someone on their team and when you, you know, when we're asking questions to the whole group of, well, oh, you were coached, what did that look like? You were in professional sports, okay. Well then, how can we learn from that? And we realized there were components of how this person liked to be led that just needed a surface in conversation. And all the different tricks that this leader was trying. Yeah, they weren't working. So, meeting that person where they're at and taking some tips from from a successful coach, that really helped this gentleman along.

Speaker 1: 15:41

Another experience we had was learning that that there was a team leader that was frustrated with a team member because they seemed bored, and so we had a conversation with that board team member. We realized that they had graduated with honors, that education came really easy, and that they were abundantly smart and they just weren't being challenged. And so the affect was you know, I'm just not learning at a level, and when the leader found that out, the leader's response was well, we can work with that, you know, but no one knew that this person has had this natural inclination just to be smart and they wanted more to learn.

Speaker 1: 16:19

And maybe someone would hesitate to admit that because they don't want to sound arrogant, Like I'm not too, I'm too good or something. Yep.

Speaker 2: 16:28

And maybe we can take a little bit of a tangent here, because we're bordering on something I find fascinating that you've brought up in a previous episode of your podcast. A big piece of the work that you do is about building on your strengths. So you work with Clifton strengths, understanding those and then learning how to build on those. But something that was quite intriguing that came up was the idea of actually breaking strengths so that we can rebuild skills. I just love this. I think it's such a cool idea. When I heard it at first I thought, well, of course we get confident in our strengths once we've learned how to build on them and we're just gliding along very smoothly and we can we can stop some of the reflection that we might have done. So let's talk a little bit about breaking strengths. And then, what is the advantage of that? Because on the surface it seems like, well, why would you want to do that? Like sabotaging yourself. So let's talk a little bit about that.

Speaker 4: 17:25

Well, and I want to distinguish between when our strengths get broken by circumstances, by becoming a parent, by going off to school, by moving to a new space, by COVID, surviving a pandemic. So there are. There's breaking that happens to you and the example I think in that is and she'd love this, but I'm going to put her on the spot. Our daughter, during COVID, asked when we were trying to shelter in place.

Speaker 1: 17:53

She's 23, by the way.

Speaker 4: 17:55

And she was, you know, 20 at the time and we were sheltering in place and she's like why are you mad? I was like I'm not mad, we just we need to protect lives and grandparents and whatever, and you can't have a sleep over at our house and her because she has an awareness and traffic's in the language of strengths.

Speaker 4: 18:17

She just said, like well, which of my strengths are off? And I remember just feeling such compassion, so it wasn't a teachable moment. Like well, what do you think, what strengths do you think are off? I was like all of them, like they're all off.

Speaker 4: 18:29

Right now, the circumstances are just such that you can't really operate in the fullness of your strengths because your context is limiting you more than what you're used to. So there's ways that strengths are broken that have nothing to do with us. Great learning opportunity and she's thriving, so it's all good, fast forward. The other part is when you're breaking them on purpose and you're trying to bust out of the mold a little bit about what people come to expect. Oh, linda, I know you'll be adaptable and we'll be able to do this, this and this, and like yeah, but I'm driven by deadlines more.

Speaker 4: 19:12

Or, if I have an opportunity to reintroduce myself to you, I would say that some of the ways that my strengths pair together and show up have really shifted because of the different contexts I find myself in, and so every once in a while, like you're saying it's taking stock and saying, okay, I'm not going to break it, but I'm going to spin it around and realize, oh yeah, this strength is actually sucking the life out of people. This strength is not helpful anymore, it is. There's a degenerative application that I've been using, but I'm but I'm trying to be successful and I spin back to okay, how do I get make the strength life giving to me and life giving to other people? And so, starting with that goal in mind, I'm not just going to break it, to break it, but starting with the goal in mind I want to turn the application of my strengths to more life giving, both for myself and for and for others.

Speaker 1: 20:13

The metaphor emerged out of my ongoing frustration of people's belief that strengths are just always strengths, and I just fundamentally didn't believe that that's true. Like that. There was no point at which a strength could become fractured or break, and when I would watch people just get to the point of overuse of certain areas of just who they are. And, yes, there's a neurochemical response happening and you love the euphoria that you're getting from being in those moments of flow. But at some point you may push it too far and then people will use language like well, that's my strength or whatever, or I'm just being in the name of their strengths, and then they're placing their responsibilities somewhere else and not on themselves and just knowing human behavior, overuse of anything, it's going to cause something to snap, and so, just as I idea of strengths can break has become a point of just drawing someone's attention to calibration, overuse.

Speaker 1: 21:21

Do I need to take a break? Do others need to break from you? And that's, that's part of the idea. Swing to the other side and I think that there are moments where leaders can gently guide someone towards a breaking to relearn. Just like a bone you know like when the surgeon says this is going to hurt.

Speaker 1: 21:42

but I got to re break this thing. Like they know and I think that they're and we're just talking to an executive just the other week about this very process of how this person might have to lead someone to the point where they're just at that moment, and then that's where the teaching happens.

Speaker 2: 21:58

And sometimes it is painful, like a break, isn't it oh?

Speaker 1: 22:01

yeah.

Speaker 2: 22:02

Yeah, I think one of my favorite expressions is from Debbie Ford. She wrote a book back in the 90s called the dark side of the light chasers, and there's a phrase that our weaknesses are our strengths. Turned up too loud, yeah, and it's just a matter of recalibrating or turning down the volume. And when I remember, I think I must have read that at just the right time to take that in, because I mean, this is not new information, but I just love to that that expression to be able to understand that your strengths can hurt you, your strengths can become brittle, they can be inappropriate for the situation.

Speaker 2: 22:43

They're not always perfectly adaptive and it's up to us to have the insight and the reflection, and even the relationships around us where we have people who can say hey, I know you're really good at making decisions and like getting out and doing stuff, but this situation calls for some reflection and some, you know, sitting in place and thinking about what we're going to do. Or, conversely, you know somebody who's who's hesitating. They know this. The situation is going to call you to act. That's so important. But it's interesting to hear about these executive examples and you know we all have to keep learning these lessons. Essentially, it's it's. It never goes away. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 23:24

I love. I love the quote you shared. I loved the sentiments you just shared because it reminds me when, when people say I want to unlock all of my 34 strengths because I want to know what the bottom are Okay, and we will often say your, I can tell you your five weaknesses right away. They are the same as your top five. They're just sucking the life out of you.

Speaker 4: 23:48

Because you traffic in them so well, right, you can lose track of time and start to realize I've hurt lots of people in this. And so how do we turn those top five, those weaknesses, as Debbie Ford was saying and, and and, adjust the volume where it needs to be turned up in this scenario, but turned down in that one, when you're building relationships or getting work done, and, and when people start to realize that, then they I was like you don't even know what 29 to 34 even you probably can't even understand it or get your mind around it. So don't spend your time there. Spend your time turning those ways that your your top five sucks the life out of you and turn it into an opportunity to you know, invest in the good, to really serve people and to serve yourself.

Speaker 3: 24:36

I also think it just made us to piggyback on that. But that idea of breaking to build back, you know stronger, like you know maybe a weightlifter or an athlete of any kind, I think too often in the strengths community, if we can say that there's this idea of this is my strength and that's like what you're saying, brian, it's always great and it's, you know, as high as it can be. But I think that we need this constant feedback loop, constantly be thinking about I've ideation as well, so you know how's my ideation being helpful in this scenario or not helpful?

Speaker 3: 25:10

And then, how should I maybe tweak it or be more aware of it for the next time? So maybe it broke a little bit here in this meeting, but now I'm aware of that and so the next time I'm going to try to do it differently or do it this way. And you know, I think there's a lot of like self compassion that needs to happen in this, in this process, when things break and go down and say, okay, I'm, I'm learning, you know baby steps. And how do you continue to have that open feedback loop, not only with yourself, but then, you know, hopefully there's people around you. You can get some feedback and say it kind of felt like my input in that meeting was off.

Speaker 3: 25:45

What was what was going on there? So back to sort of the beginning of this conversation, like how do you trust in yourself enough to be okay, fumbling around a little bit so that you can you know if things do break? Or you know, like if you go on a really long run one day, your legs are a little bit sore, so you got to take a rest and come back and then do it again and get stronger for the next time. So it's all just a big process.

Speaker 2: 26:08

I will own something here. I love what Linda was saying about your top five strengths also being your weaknesses, and as soon as she said that, I thought, oh, I know what I've been doing wrong lately reading way too much news, because one of my top strengths is learning, and partly what I do when the world seems especially chaotic is I just think, oh, I'm just going to get more sources of news and then I'll be able to contextualize it and then I'll feel like I have enough, like I can all make sense of it. Finally, it'll make sense.

Speaker 2: 26:36

Right, but of course it doesn't and it just gets worse and the news is written to upset us and you know, keep us awake. So this has been really bothering me lately and when I just thought I know what I've been doing, Thank you. So thank you, Linda, for that great little therapy there.

Speaker 4: 26:54

Proof of thought, you are welcome, and I think sometimes it's in these conversations, even just talking about it, that you start to build the connections, like, oh, that's what it is, but I'm curious and I like to learn and it's fun for me to do that, but not when you know the information is, you know, winding me up.

Speaker 2: 27:17

Or when it starts to feel compulsive and you can recognize that I'm not liking this part of myself, but I can't seem to stop. Why is that?

Speaker 4: 27:26

Yeah, good, yeah, that's, we've all been there.

Speaker 1: 27:29

Part of that learning was in your reflection, not in the repetition, and part of what we're working with people, when it comes time, like when they feel like things are breaking, it's a breaking because of overuse or repetition, which then causes time for reflection to then restore that sense of equilibrium so you can then reengage.

Speaker 2: 27:50

That captures it perfectly. Yeah, it took me a few weeks to figure out what I was doing because I couldn't connect the dots. I just thought I feel compelled to keep reading all these news sources, and I don't usually do this. Why can't I stop? But at the same time, I took actually a few people saying to me you know, maybe step back from the news a bit, it's okay, doesn't make you bad person. You're not any less informed. But let's go on to another important aspect of building trust within teams and that's giving individual autonomy. Now, there's always this give and take on teams with how do I myself show up for myself on the team? And if I'm a leader and we all have a capacity to lead, as we've already mentioned how do I give the trust and individual autonomy to my colleagues or my direct reports? Let's talk about that.

Speaker 1: 28:44

That's a tricky one, because many people ask for autonomy and they don't know what they're asking for. Autonomy without definition is quite dangerous, which can lead to people being just getting lost or losing focus.

Speaker 4: 29:08

So that was exactly where I was going to. Maybe it's because of some of the people that we've met with lately, but sometimes autonomy and I would say without accountability or responsibility just is like they're doing whatever they want. So do we have some agreements about where we want to head? Do we have the goal so that you can be accountable to get here, but you can decide which steps you want to take or just check in with me at this specific milestone, and so we find that people thrive when a lot of people thrive when they can act and have not be micromanaged and just be trusted to get to the next mile marker. But it doesn't always. If there's not accountability, there's usually frustration.

Speaker 1: 29:57

And with that client that Linda is referring to, there was this language around autonomy and accountability, responsibility and relationships and we talked about those four elements. That there's somewhat of a math, and the distinction of that math is determined by culture, but autonomy with accountability, relationships and responsibility Like what's that unique equation there for people to truly have the autonomy that they're asking for? Many people are asking for autonomy in relationship and not autonomy in independence and they get that confused.

Speaker 2: 30:36

Interesting. And they don't realize it. They have to. No, they don't.

Speaker 1: 30:40

Because once they have the independence like if they're granted independence they quickly realize that they're alone and that's not what they want in. They want autonomy in relationship and not autonomy in isolation.

Speaker 2: 30:51

Is there a good question that you can ask to help people make that distinction for themselves, so they don't have to learn the hard way?

Speaker 1: 30:59

Yeah, do you feel lost?

Speaker 2: 31:03

Cut right to the chase.

Speaker 1: 31:05

Well, I have that tendency. But I've asked a question like that a lot and it sounds like this Do you feel alone or who's with you? Did you talk with anyone else around that? There's a lot of ways I ask the question are you alone? Because when people feel that sense of isolation like sometimes they've asked for it, but they didn't mean by myself, you know they meant in connection with or I have access to, and so one of the ways that I ask those questions in coaching sessions is who else is with you? Have you talked to anyone else about this? How long have you felt this way? When was the last thing you checked in with whoever they were checking in with? When was the last time you were texting your good buddy at work? So there's like all these other questions where I can really get a sense of their autonomy has led them to be alone and not in critical connection with the people that they care the most about.

Speaker 4: 32:00

It makes me think of a leader that wanted the freedom to just, you know, tell his team this is where we're going, just however you get there. But then, as he was kind of recounting who is doing what it was like, but I wouldn't have done it that way, this, this, this but I would have done it that way, or I would have done it that way, and sometimes it was when, sometimes it was lose, but I felt like, wow, a little judgment in there and maybe he was just trying to be open or just name it with you know some people that he felt safe with, but there was also, oh man, this is, I might just lose them all, or he could win completely, win them over. There's many people that just don't want to be told what to do. They've been micromanaged before. They've always felt like their thumb is on them and they they're not free to to be who they are, to think who they are. When they hear that you know there's certain deadlines or we're driving to this completion, it's like just trust them to get there.

Speaker 2: 33:04

Right and maybe we can pivot then to the next piece, because I think this segues nicely the idea of creating challenge and difficulty. Because, again, this is subjective, this is open to interpretation. Maybe that leader thought I'm giving autonomy, therefore people will rise to the challenge with their strengths and skills. But this leader might not have recognized that it would feel threatening on some level, or that it would feel scary, maybe like, oh, I'm not really in control, like I thought I was. Maybe we can talk a little bit about this balance, because creating challenge and difficulty is this really finely tuned dance. I feel like it's very easy to get out of step and lose your balance if things are pushed too far. But to your earlier point, you don't want it to be so easy that the person is bored and feeling underdeveloped or under challenged. So maybe let's let's go into a little detail there. Are there any examples or guidance you want to share?

Speaker 4: 34:04

The first thing that comes to mind is that the teams that we've worked with that know how to navigate conflict well. So that could be in creating challenges and difficulty. But the teams that know how to navigate conflict well and they don't make it personal and they're in conflict, maybe with ideas or perspectives Usually that that leads to some sort of innovative breakthrough. Where the team now is, you know, the floodgates open and they can go even even faster. So even for some leaders to say, hey, we're going to think about how to create challenge and difficulty, like, no, I don't want to do that. No, I don't do that.

Speaker 4: 34:44

But we find how do you create conflict and orchestrate the conflict? Well, to use a high fits and linsky phrase, how do you orchestrate the conflict in order to give people a sense of safety, but an opportunity to lean into something new and to realize, like, I'm going to have to let go of some things here, I am going to have to broaden some of my thinking. So my first thought is it's usually what is that team's comfort level with conflict?

Speaker 1: 35:15

And I turned around because one of the resources that that that we use is rebel talent, because Francesco Gino coined a term called constructive conflict, and so it's this. It's this idea that the challenge, as you, as you're referencing, is part of the developmental process, or the. The challenge is a strategy to create more cohesion among the team. The challenge is just beyond the fingertips of the people's capacity, so that it's a moment of learning and relying on each other and overcoming diversity and limiting bias. So it's all these things, but it's well thought through and we have found that there are leaders that have identified the challenge that they believe they're calling their team to, but the challenge was far beyond the reach of the team and they had them break that down into several steps. May have taken them longer to get there. They didn't lose sight of what the goal was, but they got there in a different way than what they actually thought.

Speaker 1: 36:19

There are other leaders that we work with that I'm going to use this phrase. They're much more embedded within the team, so that the challenges are just a stones throw away from capacity and the people can still see it, they can still lock in it, they can still make progress, and those leaders are checking in with regularity. Those leaders are asking people if they need help. Those leaders are providing the necessary resources. Those leaders are actually listening to people when they're complaining and figuring out what's really going on here. So there's that constant dialogue. It's as if the leader is running with the pack instead of watching the pack run from the side.

Speaker 3: 36:58

It's a different.

Speaker 1: 36:58

it's just a different way of achieving challenge together and it's just two different leadership styles.

Speaker 2: 37:03

Hmm, and do you think you feel one is more effective than the other?

Speaker 1: 37:07

Yes.

Speaker 2: 37:08

Yeah, so it's clear that running with the back is the way to go.

Speaker 1: 37:13

What I find is and we use this with another client of ours their executive leadership team was struggling with something, and I just asked this question to them is what type of pacing do your people need right now?

Speaker 1: 37:26

Do they need a pace setter that is out in front by several meters? Do they need a pace setter that is running in stride with some of your pre-identified leaders, or are you pacing from behind, making sure that those that are falling back are being cared for, that are provided with the resources that they can catch up again? We tossed it onto them. What is it that you believe your culture needs right now? And we just use that idea of pacing different ways of leading, and I believe that the moment, and so the context and the culture, determines how a leader leads to the challenge.

Speaker 2: 38:03

Yeah, absolutely. Let's summarize some effective questions that you can use with your team or your colleagues to recognize excellence in a meaningful way. What are some tips there? If you're a leader or you're a colleague and you want to recognize excellence and reward excellence amongst your team, what do you ask them and what might you do to achieve?

Speaker 4: 38:27

that Some things that we've done is encourage teams to give value shout out. So I want to recognize this person who is demonstrating our team's value of X by this, this and this and this, and all of a sudden, their behavior is a lived out value. People feel recognized and it's a sending a message to everybody, because oftentimes this is important via a Slack channel or teams or in a town hall or something, but it's sending a message to everyone else hey, this is the bar of excellence and this is what this lived value means. So that's one of the things that we do.

Speaker 1: 39:14

And we have seen leaders do this well, because some of the leaders that I'm thinking of it's an excellence, and I think, from my experience, the best leaders never lose sight of what the excellence is.

Speaker 1: 39:29

That 98, 99th percentile, that's excellent, and it's people that demonstrate their commitment to it, people that were part of it, like well, linda saying they're demonstrating the value that gets us there.

Speaker 1: 39:45

Leaders, I find, often make the mistake of excellence being only the achievement of the goal, and what I'm asking leaders to do is it's the excellence and it's the momentum, and it's the person that was really encouraging and it was the person that kept track of the score and it was the person that came and helped someone, because that is all part of the excellence expression that we often overlook is that it takes so much to get to excellence, and so when we're working with clients, like Linda is referring to, we'll ask individuals to give shout outs to people that are actually living out the values or living out whatever it is that they're pursuing, so that the adoration comes from colleagues and not just the leader. And, as we all know, yes, it means a lot when an expression of excellence comes from a leader, and arguably some research would back this up. It means even more when that adoration towards excellence comes from a peer.

Speaker 2: 40:46

Yes, yeah, it's more of that running with a pack idea right.

Speaker 2: 40:50

Observing while you're in motion, observing while you're working on something together. You're seeing the challenge, but not just achieving the objective. You're seeing how they did it, how they lived, the values, how they walked, the talk. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. Well, we've given people a lot to think about. So thank you so much to our listeners. I want to point them in the direction of more resources, and I think your website has some fantastic links. You've got a blog. You've got all kinds of worksheets and opportunities for people to learn more. Is there anything you want to highlight here today?

Speaker 3: 41:27

I think if you just go to our website, leadershipvisionconsultingcom, there's a resource tab, as you mentioned, and there's a plethora of things on there. We do have an online community, something we launched in the last year, and what we try to do on there is we have our podcast, we have our blog, but we also have this space where people can then come and kick ideas around with like-valued leaders and sort of add their two cents and, similar to what the four of us just did here say here's an idea from this podcast, what did you think about it, and kind of offer their way. So it's an extended a place to kind of extend the learning and grow and wrestle with these ideas together.

Speaker 2: 42:06

Thank you, that's fantastic. Maybe for the last question, is there anything I didn't ask you today that you wanted to talk about Brian's, like, how long do you have Connected as intellectual?

Speaker 4: 42:20

There's just so much.

Speaker 1: 42:22

No, because I did not come to the conversation, thinking when can I say this?

Speaker 2: 42:30

That's why it was fun.

Speaker 4: 42:32

Yeah, I really appreciated the flow and the way that you ask questions. I can hear your strength of learner and ideation and how it you did bring the generosity to the table, and so I just appreciate this opportunity to chat with you a bit.

Speaker 1: 42:52

Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much.

Speaker 3: 42:54

Thank you for all the great questions and the preparation and yeah as Linda said. I was like, as you kind of dangled your strengths a little bit here and there, we could do a whole nother interview with her where she just talks about her strengths and we offer feedback from our years of experience and watch the ahas go off in your brain as we got to see here a little bit. I would adore that opportunity.

Speaker 2: 43:17

So please keep in touch if there's time. Wonderful, I never got to go into depth with my Clifton strengths, so I'm eager to learn more about that being the learner.

Speaker 3: 43:29

Yes, of course you are.

Speaker 2: 43:31

But it's just been so fun having you on the podcast and these are my favorite types of conversations where it just flows and you feel like you could talk forever and little sparks going off every other sentence and just connecting the dots and being able to take away even, like I said, a personal insight today which I wasn't expecting, but it's always a welcome gift. So thank you so much for that.

Speaker 3: 43:55

Thank you, you're welcome.

Speaker 2: 43:56

Thank you.

Speaker 3: 43:58

Thank you again to Yanastam and the Access Ideas podcast for not only interviewing us and allowing us to be guests, but letting us use this in our own, on our own podcast and to edit it maybe a little bit differently and draw out some other other things.

Speaker 3: 44:13

So thank you so much, and I just got to say again it was a lot of fun and we're going to be doing more of this this year, so stay tuned for that. And thank you, listeners, for listening to the Leadership Vision podcast, our show helping you build positive team culture. Our consulting firm has been doing this for over 25 years so that leaders are mentally engaged and emotionally healthy, and if you found value from this episode or any of our other online course materials, we would love it if you could give us a review in iTunes, on Spotify, on YouTube, follow us on social media or honestly just pass this on to someone that you think could benefit from growing deeper in their strengths the strengths of their team or the strengths of their entire organization. For more information about us, you can go to leadershipvisionconsultingcom. You can sign up for our weekly newsletter, where we deliver all kinds of helpful information for leaders about growing your own leadership skills and the skills of your team. I'm Nathan Freeberg and, on behalf of our entire team, thanks for listening.