The Leadership Vision Podcast

Embracing Ally Leadership with Stephanie Chung (Part II)

• Nathan Freeburg • Season 8 • Episode 10

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In this episode of The Leadership Vision Podcast, we continue our conversation with executive coach and aviation leader Stephanie Chung about her book Ally Leadership: How to Lead People Who Are Not Like You. We explore:

  • Why diversity goes beyond race and gender—it’s about experiences, thought processes, and communication styles.
  • How privilege isn’t a bad thing—it’s a tool that can be used to create positive change.
  • Why allyship requires action, not just intention, and how leaders can take meaningful steps to support inclusivity.

Stephanie shares powerful stories and actionable insights that will challenge and inspire leaders at every level.

Listen now and take action to become a more inclusive, effective leader.

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The Leadership Vision Podcast is a weekly show sharing our expertise in discovering, practicing, and implementing a Strengths-based approach to people, teams, and culture. Contact us to talk to us about helping your team understand the power of Strengths.

Speaker 1:

I want everyone, also from a leadership perspective, to let's not dumb down the word diverse, because so far the narrative has very much made it a black, white, gay straight male, female issue. But when we talk about diversity, diversity is diversity of thought, diversity of communication skills and, yes, it's age and race and gender and sexual orientation. You know neurodiversity and all that stuff, but everything is about diversity literally everything.

Speaker 1:

And so if you want a team that's going to win, you wouldn't have a basketball team with just forwards right, you would never win. Right, you wouldn't have a military that only know how to fly planes right, you've got Marines, air Force, army, like. You've got a lot of different diversity because you're going to see things differently, so don't get freaked out by the word diversity.

Speaker 3:

Welcome back to the Leadership Vision Podcast. I'm Nathan Friberg and today we are continuing our conversation with Stephanie Chung, a powerhouse leader in the aviation industry, an executive coach, a sought after speaker on leadership and diversity and the author of the wonderful book Ally Leadership how to Lead People who Are Not Like you. In this book, stephanie shares actionable strategies to help leaders of all kinds bridge cultural, generational and experiential gaps so that they can lead more effectively in today's complex workplace. Now, if you haven't already listened to part one, I highly recommend that you go back and check it out. There's a link in the show notes for that, and in that episode, stephanie shares her powerful journey from growing up in a military family and learning how to adapt to new environments all the time to breaking barriers as a leader in private aviation. We talked about the experiences that shaped her leadership and the lessons she learned along the way.

Speaker 3:

In the second conversation here today, we dig into the key ideas from her book Ally Leadership and explore some of Stephanie's insights on leadership in today's world. We talk about what it truly means to be an ally in leadership, the importance of understanding privilege and why diversity is an undeniable strength in any organization. Now, as you listen. I want you to consider these two things as you reflect on your own leadership journey. Number one how are you actively using your privilege, whatever that might be, to lift others up and create opportunities? And number two what action steps can you take to build a more diverse, inclusive and high-performing team? And this word diversity, we know, is kind of a hot one right now. So please just give this a listen with an open mind and I think that we might give you a different perspective, perhaps, on what these words mean. Stephanie brings so much wisdom and energy to this conversation and we really think that you're going to walk away with some practical insights that you can apply right away, so let's jump in.

Speaker 1:

And then the other part that I would say I learned a lot about through the book process was that the stories that resonated with folks. You know there's one story I know you guys have read the book. I won't give it to go a lot of details, but there is a story that I talked about that I had an encounter with someone 30 years ago when and this person was transgender and I didn't know what the word meant when someone had asked me to have lunch with this person. So I didn't have a background, I didn't have an understanding, didn't have anything, and I write the story from the perspective of me sitting across the table in front of this person. And I'm writing it not just because of me and this person, but also how the rest of the restaurant was responding to this person.

Speaker 1:

So it's a really interesting story and I didn't even realize as I was writing it, because this happened 30 years ago, that it was. Even I had so many feelings in that process and vulnerabilities because, again, it wasn't like something I knew. You know it was an area that was unfamiliar to me. And here's what's really interesting is everybody, whether in marketplace or ministry, that story really resonates with people? Because I think the way that it's written, all of us can see ourselves either as the restaurant waiter and waitress, or the restaurant person having a power lunch, or me, or the person Like you can find yourself somewhere in there and then you then have to confront yourself with your own biases and whatnot.

Speaker 3:

So Well and what I? That story stood out to me too because what I thought was interesting I think you had done a bunch of research or something about like the psychology and whatever, but until you got there you're like I didn't know what to expect. And I think so often leaders do that where they you know they do research and kind of like how we started this. It's like we think we know who you are, but we really don't until we talk to you. And so I wonder if that's just such a big part of maybe the problem today, as people just do a research, assume they know what someone's differences are and then just apply that.

Speaker 3:

I don't know, Well meaning ignorance towards whatever they're trying to do. Well meaning ignorance, well meaning ignorance. And.

Speaker 1:

I love that, nate, and that's and that's the part that can get people frustrated Right. I love that, nate, and that's the part that can get people frustrated right, because the book Ally Leadership but Ally stands for ask, listen, learn, you take action. And so whenever I'm speaking in public this will always happen Somewhere during the meet and greets someone will come up to me usually a man and say I love this. I am such a ally for women. I'm married to the same woman for however long, and I've got three girls. I'm a girl. Dad Like this is awesome. I'm an ally, and what I always say to people is that's fantastic. Thank you so much. Tell me what you've done this week to show your allyship Crickets right. They're like looking at me, you know staring at me.

Speaker 1:

They different life, they don't have any receipts to back it up. And so one of the things that I hope people get out of the book is that it's not enough for you to self-anoint yourself as an ally. You have to have receipts of what actions you've actually taken. And if you've taken actions, then guess what? You don't have to tell me you're an ally. I can see it for myself, right, because I've seen the action. But we've really got to get away from and this is really important for leaders they have to get away from just deciding oh, I know a couple people or I've read a couple things or I think I know this You've got to ask, you've got to listen, you've got to learn and then you have to take action. But it's not enough just to ask and listen and learn if you don't act right, and it's certainly not enough to just assume you know. You really have to go into these relationships, whether it's intergenerationally, different gender, different race, different religion, different ability, whatever right Different is different. You have to go into these conversations with the attitude of I don't know anything and then I'm going to ask questions and I'm going to listen, because, even if you, sometimes the fear people have is I don't want to ask anything that makes me look stupid or I don't want to be offensive, right? So there's the flip side of that as well. That's the conversation I had with this story we're all talking about. It's like I did all this research so I don't look like an idiot.

Speaker 1:

You know when it comes time to have lunch with this person, but the truth of the matter is that people who are different this is a head and heart issue. We all know, especially if you're a person who comes from a marginalized group. We can sense people's heart real quick, and so we know if your heart is in the right place. You may not have asked the question appropriately, or maybe you know, but if your heart's in the right place, we'd much rather you talk to us than not talk to us at all because you have this fear of being offensive. We can tell it's a heart issue, right, and so I would just encourage all leaders you're going to leave people who aren't like you it's okay, as long as your heart's in the right place, to actually ask a question. One of the things I did at that lunch is I said you know what, and I would love to be able to ask you questions. First question is what questions are off limits?

Speaker 4:

right, that's the first question.

Speaker 1:

And the second question is I know I'm going to say something stupid or offensive, and not because I'm trying to, but because I'm trying to learn and I don't know and that then gave the person to give me grace and go. Absolutely, let's have the conversation. That's right, yeah.

Speaker 4:

Well, Stephanie, what I appreciate about your stories and your compelling narratives and your lessons learned that you share with all of us is it gives us space to think about where this happens in our own life, and it makes me think of early days at Leadership Vision. And it makes me think of early days at Leadership Vision and I was leading with another woman and this man came up to us and said hey, can we fly the two of you out, but bring Nathan and Brian with us and then invite the men and then have the men watch how Brian and Nathan treat us as absolute equals. And he was stunned. I mean, we never got the invitation.

Speaker 4:

I was going to say I never did that he wasn't ready for it, but sometimes we put it on the marginalized group to teach us about what we're supposed to do, instead of taking the risk to say you know what are the questions and how do I step into this narrative that we can write together and that I can be an ally. So I just I'm thankful for, I'm thankful for the structure that you're giving to us, to our listeners, and the inspiration to think in some different ways.

Speaker 1:

Oh, thank you.

Speaker 4:

You're wrestling with a question.

Speaker 3:

Brian always has that look on his face when he's really thinking it's his thought. Yeah.

Speaker 4:

I don't want to start, just start.

Speaker 2:

Ready, go?

Speaker 1:

yeah, I'm almost afraid of his question, I know well there are people that, whatever, it doesn't matter um ignore what I'm looking like.

Speaker 2:

okay, so here's where I'm at, stephanie, I, I cannot, I cannot, unwilling, doesn't matter. I'm wrestling with the, with many concepts that we're talking about right now. I'm wrestling because what you're talking about and of course you know this is a lived experience that we go through on the daily. So we're either consulting or executive coaching people almost every day and you're touching on a lot of things in this conversation that I am personally experiencing, as you know hot buttons or tripwires, or just ultimate questions that are happening within this current environment, larger conversations that are happening nationally, and then an international kind of dialogue on. You know, I must be heard and my origin story must be told.

Speaker 2:

All that to say this I'm wrestling with the importance of your idea of window versus mirror, because I know and I use that word collectively, I know that that's an issue. Second, because I'm nuancing some assumptions of that. The second thing that's really I'm wrestling with is privilege, because I come from a point of view and a lived experience of and yet to just trust me, of my lived experience of. I believe everyone has a level of privilege and underprivilege, one's overbaked, one's over amplified. But how do we?

Speaker 3:

discover what our unique privilege is and the dark side of that.

Speaker 2:

And then my other question is um, um, we, when we do our work, just 10 seconds. We talk about the intellectual, emotional, physical and spiritual side of people, regardless of context. And by spiritual we mean that human need, a human being's need for a transcendent experience to connect with something greater than the current. Whether it's emotional, social, political, I don't care what all, but that transcendent gives you a different perspective, a different sense of meaning, a connection to higher purpose, and that type of conversation is coming up a lot more than it has in the past, especially since COVID.

Speaker 2:

Now that, all being said, I'm not even sure where to go. Like what? The question? Like what do you think, stephanie, is important from your experience? Should we talk, or can we talk about the mirror and window? Or is privilege something that we can amplify? Or is this transcendent kind of escape from reality to reconnect to? Why am I here? Which kind of taps into your significance? And I know that some of the most fundamental psychological needs of human beings are meaning, belonging and significance that I have a purpose here on earth. I'm going to stop.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, where do you want?

Speaker 2:

to go. What are you hearing?

Speaker 3:

What are you feeling In 15 minutes?

Speaker 1:

let's solve it all solve it all yeah, exactly. Well, if you, if you'd like, what I can do is try to hit each one, that's true yeah and I'll just kind of give so.

Speaker 1:

So first, when we talk in the book about mirror versus window, just to uh, you know, give the give the audience an understanding of where we're referring to, that it really is about your bias at the end of the day, right. And so the way that we think about in-group and out-group, so the brain is going to automatically and you can talk on this a lot more, brian, than I but the brain is going to actually, when looking at someone, let's just say from a facial perspective just keep it simple it's going to put people either in an in-group you're like me or an out-group really not like me. And so when we think about that in the workplace, then, depending on how you were brought up, there's going to be a lot of people that your brain's going to automatically stick them in an out-group because it's just not familiar to you. Now, it doesn't make you a bad person, and I think that's the piece that I want leaders to hold on to. It doesn't make you a bad person and I think that's the piece that I want leaders to hold on to. It doesn't make you a bad person because you have a bias. Biases actually can serve really good things for us and keep us safe in a lot of different ways.

Speaker 1:

And so if we can kind of start with putting away the sensitivity right of in-group, out-group or you know, does that automatically make me a this right?

Speaker 1:

So put that away. And if you go into it because, again, I've always said this is a head and heart issue so if you go into it with a heart perspective, which is okay, yes, I grew up a certain way and therefore I may or may not have had exposure to other folks, but that doesn't make me a bad person and it doesn't mean that I can't grow and develop. And so our default system in our brain is going to just try to protect, right. And so what we have to do is to realize that I've got to put people into, I've got to override that, and how I override it is to make the unfamiliar familiar. So, going back to ally leadership, ask, listen, learn and take action that's the easiest way to make the unfamiliar familiar so that you can start to increase your in-group or make this more of a window versus a little tiny mirror. So that's the first thing is what I would say in regards to that particular subject say in regards to that particular subject.

Speaker 4:

That was great, by the way. So good, so good.

Speaker 2:

The simplicity by which you synthesize the data and information and science of that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, oh, I take that as a big compliment.

Speaker 2:

It's huge, because breaking that stuff down, yeah, all right.

Speaker 1:

Okay, thank you. So now I'm going to hit privilege Nathan okay, yes, please. Privilege is always an interesting word to me, because it's actually a positive word. Right, privilege is a positive word.

Speaker 3:

Not a dirty word.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's not a dirty word, and yet somehow, with all the narrative that's out there, we've made a really positive word, a trigger word for many people. And the minute people start hearing privilege, the conversation starts to shut down. And so I want to challenge everyone to look at privilege a different way. Everybody has privilege everybody and there's different types of privileges. So in the book I talk about several different types of privilege. Unfortunately, in our world, at least in our country, we've kind of narrowed the word privilege down to, you know, black, white haves and have not men, women, like we've just made it too simplistic. But there's a lot of different ways that privilege shows up when I, you know, in the book I talk about proximity privilege. You know, listen, I come from the private jet industry. I know a lot of the world's movers and shakers, and so I had a situation when my husband had a stroke and we had life and death decisions to make. Then I used my privilege, which was proximity privilege, to actually override a healthcare system that was not working in my favor. So that's a way that you can use privilege.

Speaker 1:

I guess I want leaders to realize that even you as a leader just you being a leader, gives you more privilege than probably the people that work on your team. The question isn't about whether or not you have privilege. Let me be the first to break it to you. You have privilege, okay. The question is how do you use that privilege for good? That's the question, right, and that's where I really want leaders to spend more time to take the sensitivity down about the word privilege and raise up your sensitivity about how do I use my privilege. Maybe you have to figure out which one you have or which ones you have, but how do you use that for good so that you can be a leader for all types of people? Because the goal of ally leadership is to ask, listen, learn and then you take action, and your privilege is a way that you can take action.

Speaker 2:

Right, oh geez, I could talk about that for another 15 minutes.

Speaker 3:

I love it. Next podcast oh my. God yeah, okay.

Speaker 1:

Now my last one need to connect with something greater. See, brian, I was taking notes, I was paying attention when you were talking to me, all right, so one of the things that I think about with the book is it really is. At the end of the day, I think leadership is a calling, and either you know you are called to do it or you're not. It's not an easy thing, and it's certainly not for the faint at heart, and so if, in fact, you believe that you're called to be a leader, then for me personally, again, I'm a woman of faith, and so I think that one day I will be held accountable and I will answer. For how did I influence those that God's given me? Right? His most prized possession is human beings, and so he's allowed me to have influence over certain ones, whether they worked on my team or I worked with them at different capacities, whatever, and I think I'm going to be held accountable. I'm going to stand there and talk about did I help them or did I hurt them? That's how I see leadership. So, with that in mind, we're all you know, most of us are looking for that bigger thing, right? Because if you don't have it, then life gets a little boring and mundane, but for me, I think most leaders believe that they are called for something greater, and it stretches them and it challenges them, right, and all this is a good thing. And then, once we learn through trials and tribulations, right, then we can go back and say, hey, here's what I learned, and in hopes that this will help you to avoid some of the you know, pit stops that I had to make unnecessarily.

Speaker 1:

And so when I think of leadership and you know I talk a little bit about this in the book I do believe that we're all called, most of us are searching for. You know, I've got to be put on this earth for something greater than maybe what I'm doing now. And so what does that look like? And whatever it looks like, it's going to involve people. Like you will not do anything great that doesn't involve people, right, it's going to involve people.

Speaker 1:

So the question becomes anything great that doesn't involve people, right, it's going to involve people. So the question becomes how do I maximize that impact or that greatness? And how I do it, I believe, is by first understanding that everybody's different. You could have your in-group, your out-group, your privilege, your, you know all that stuff, it doesn't really matter. You will be interacting with other people, and they're most likely people who are not like you, and so use the book as a tool to help you understand how to do it effectively, so that you can actually, you know, fulfill the calling that you've got on your life, that's how.

Speaker 1:

I see the purpose of the book.

Speaker 2:

Wow, well, thanks for hitting each of those three. Nathan, what's your producer?

Speaker 3:

Well, yeah, so I want to be aware of time. I'm wondering, stephan, just thank you so much for this whole conversation. You strike me as someone that doesn't like to sit around, that likes to take action. Each section of your book ends with key takeaways and then gives people something to take action towards. I don't even know if I'm going to give you an impossible task here, but in all that we've talked about in the last hour and five minutes, what is maybe one or two, if one is too hard one way that people can take action towards the big ideas in your book?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, thank you for the question. I would just say that the very first thing I would do is I really want all leaders, but specifically your listeners, to give yourself some grace, right? No one's looking for you to do this with perfection. We're all trying to figure it out, Every single one of us, myself included. But with that in mind, I don't want people to overcomplicate this either. Little kids do it in school at five years old. Clearly, we can do this as adults, and so that's what I really want.

Speaker 1:

Is that all of the things that we end up having to deprogram ourselves with it's because it's learned behavior over time. And now for leaders, because of the time that we're in and the calling that we have, we've got to decompress all this stuff and kind of get rid of the stinking thinking. So what I would say, Nathan and Linda and Brian, is a couple easy things A don't overthink it. B just know that you're going to make some mistakes, and that's okay, Unless you're some kind of brain surgeon, no one's going to die in this process, Okay. So if you make a mistake, learn from it, ask for forgiveness and then move on right. It does nobody any good for you not to at least try, OK, and so have. You know all of those neighborhoods have usually art centers, and you know certainly restaurants and cultural centers, and you know it's all there for you if, in fact, you choose to embrace it. And so when you go and surround yourself with people who are not like you, you're going to find that they're actually a lot more like you than you ever anticipated.

Speaker 1:

But you won't know that if you don't step out first. So feel the fear and do it anyway, because you're a leader, this is easy for you. I mean, you've got more scary stuff you got to deal with throughout the day, right, and so leadership, you know you're called for this and so I wouldn't let this, the unknown, freak you out, because every day in leadership there's the unknown. The market somebody wants your product, Nobody wants your product. The market change. You know we've got global supply chain issues. We've got a war that broke out somewhere. You, you're a leader, You're equipped to handle all this stuff. Don't let this thing, the whole cultural fluency, scare the bejesus out of you. It's not that scary, but it will require you to really take that first step. And if you take that first step and acknowledge that you don't know everything and that people don't need to work around. How you see things, if you take that first initial step, you're going to be shocked how much easier everything else is.

Speaker 2:

I love that and you'll be more successful because, the numbers are clear.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1:

Teams simply produce and outproduce non-diverse ones.

Speaker 3:

I love that. I love that the action step of don't be afraid and just get out and do something.

Speaker 1:

And may I say one more thing, nathan, Please. I think that would be important and is. I want everyone, also from a leadership perspective, to let's not dumb down the word diverse, because so far the narrative has very much made it a black, white, gay straight male, female issue. But when we talk about diversity, diversity is diversity of thought, diversity of communication skills and, yes, it's age and race and gender and sexual orientation. You know neurodiversity and all that stuff, but everything is about diversity literally everything.

Speaker 1:

And so if you want a team that's going to win, you wouldn't hire. You wouldn't have a basketball team with just forwards right, you would never win, right, you wouldn't have a military that only people only know how to fly planes, right. You've got Marines, air Force, army, like. You've got a lot of different diversity because you're going to see things differently. So don't get freaked out by the word diversity. Diversity comes in a lot of different shapes, forms and fashions, and all we're saying is that there is a diversity of perspective and expectation and thought, and that's where you're going to get your innovation. That's where you're going to get your competitive edge. That's where you're going to get your creativity, ideas. That's where you're going to be able to go and open up new markets.

Speaker 1:

There's a lot that goes into the word diversity. Don't let it freak you out. Don't believe the hype you're hearing out there either. Diversity is a beautiful thing and we're needing leaders to embrace it and to really attack it head on and then stand on purpose in regards to what you believe is going to be most beneficial for your team, your company, etc. Don't believe the hype. You're the leader, you're in command here. You got this.

Speaker 3:

I love that. I would drop my mic if it wasn't secured to the table here and so expensive.

Speaker 1:

And so expensive and so expensive yeah. I know you guys got the cool mic. I should have brought my cool mic out. I was like he's an info. Oh, that's okay.

Speaker 4:

You don't need help sounding cool. Thank you, we do.

Speaker 3:

Thank you so much. I know you have to run.

Speaker 1:

This was so fun. Thank you, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Stephanie I, I just want to thank you, for it's your voice like, not the voice voice, it's the voice, and so in this context, I would just label it as prophetic, perfect. You know, the prophetic voice speaks the truth as they have experienced it within their context, in perfect tense, makes it practical and applicable to a lot of people. So I hear a voice that's prophetic, perfect, a message that's applicable to humanity and not just a subgroup of humanity. So speaking truth in a confident way, like you do, I value that big time. But the fact that it's applicable across boundaries, across cultures, across generations, that to me is five stars.

Speaker 4:

It's healing and reconciling. It's healing and reconciling.

Speaker 2:

Well, it's going to be healing down the road. It's divisive and catalytic at the front end too, unless you have a heart that's open and a mind that's willing to hear it. It's also an attention getter.

Speaker 1:

That blesses me. Thank you, so, so, very much. You have no idea. Thank you for saying that. I appreciate it.

Speaker 3:

Wow, stephanie. Thank you so much. That brings us to the end of this powerful two part conversation here with Stephanie Chung. In this episode, we unpacked some of the biggest ideas from her book Ally Leadership how to Lead People who Are Not Like you. We just explored the importance of understanding privilege, building diverse teams and taking real action as an ally and leadership.

Speaker 3:

Now, as you take these insights back to your own leadership, back to your own environment, back to your companies and families and wherever it is that you're going today, here are just two things that you can discuss with those people. So, number one, how are you using your leadership influence, whatever that looks like, to open doors for others? Consider where you have privilege whether it's positional, relational, experiential, whatever it is and how can you use that, or how can you leverage that to support those around you. It's a great topic of discussion. Number two what small action can you take this week, or even today, to foster a more inclusive and engaged team? Now, whether that's perhaps amplifying someone's voice in a meeting or rethinking how decisions are made, or maybe even it's just asking deeper questions, every step counts towards creating a stronger, more inclusive workplace and, if you'll remember, stephanie reminded us that great leaders. They don't just talk about allyship, they live it through action. So what's one action you can take today?

Speaker 3:

Thank you for joining us on the Leadership Vision Podcast, our show helping you build positive team culture, and if this conversation resonated with you in any way, we would appreciate it if you could share it with someone who you think needs to hear it or could benefit from this work of Stephanie's book or any of the work that we do. For more information about us at Leadership Vision, you can visit us on the web at leadershipvisionconsultingcom, or click the link in the show notes. Please sign up for our free email newsletter, subscribe to the podcast wherever you get your podcasts, join us on all the socials, all of that stuff. My name is Nathan Freeberg and, on behalf of our entire team, thanks for listening.