The Leadership Vision Podcast

The Power of Play: How Practice Shapes Our Dreams

• Nathan Freeburg, Linda Schubring, Brian Schubring • Season 8 • Episode 24

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In this episode, Nathan Freeburg speaks with Unfolded authors Dr. Linda and Brian Schubring about Chapter 2: Play. Together, they discuss why play is essential for personal and professional transformation. They explore metaphors of playgrounds, how to know when to move on from comfortable spaces, and the role of reflection and growth in leadership.

Key Topics Covered:

  • Play as practice in disguise
  • The metaphor of playgrounds for professional development
  • Knowing when it’s time to leave your “playground”
  • The fear of transition and how to move through it
  • Encouraging growth in ourselves and others through playful practice

Pull Quotes:

“Don’t be afraid to play and try something new in the pursuit of your dream.”


 “Are you still growing? If not, it might be time to move to a new playground.”


 “Sometimes we’re not progressing in our play because we’re inspiring others to start theirs.”


Resources Mentioned:

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Speaker 1:

Sometimes I believe that there's a pause in our play where we may not be making the progress that we believe is necessary to fulfill our dream, but we're actually providing the inspiration to other people to fulfill their dream.

Speaker 2:

Because play helps us practice levity, where we don't take ourselves so seriously, but maybe we take whatever we're working on seriously or those around us seriously we're working on seriously, or those around us seriously, but the practice of levity will also I don't know maybe increase our enjoyment or increase our capacity to build relationships.

Speaker 3:

That last. You are listening to the Leadership Vision Podcast, our show helping you build positive team culture. Our consulting firm has been doing this work for the past 25 years so that leaders are mentally engaged and emotionally healthy. To learn more about our work, you can click the link in the show notes or visit us on the web at leadershipvisionconsultingcom. Hello everyone, my name is Nathan Freeberg and today on the podcast, I get to talk with Dr Linda and Brian Schubring, co-authors of the USA Today Publishers Weekly and Porchlight National-selling book Unfolded Lessons in Transformation from an Origami Crane, and in this episode we are going to be diving into chapter two of the book, which is all about play. We'll explore how playgrounds those safe spaces to experiment, imagine and fail are essential to discovering your voice and pursuing your dreams. We'll also talk about the risk of staying too long in those playgrounds and how to use play strategically. Now, as you listen, consider this where is your playground and what might be holding you back from stepping out of it? All right, let's dive in.

Speaker 1:

Brian and Linda. Hello, Hello.

Speaker 3:

Excuse me, I was reading your book, oh sorry, how did you like the introduction? What our listeners don't know is that took me about 15 times to get out.

Speaker 2:

It's all about the play of it.

Speaker 3:

I was fumbling up, but I think that's a good kickoff to what we're going to be talking about today. So chapter two is all about play, and right now, when we're recording this, it's the middle of summer and because my kids aren't in school and because they're not in a lot of camps, my summer is full of play. It is playing games that we make up on the spot. It's playing games like catch. It's playing things literally out on the playground. I don't know if you're familiar with the ever popular lava monster. The rules of this game I have yet to figure out, because it's basically the kids just want me to chase them around on the on the play structure.

Speaker 3:

But I have a question to kick us off here. I know we could get into that, but I realized I could talk about that too much here. This chapter on play is fascinating to me and I'm curious why did you include this? Or maybe what is maybe another way to say? That is what is kind of the larger message around play that we want to talk about. And then I have you can't really see this, but I've highlighted so many things in here that I want to ask you about, so maybe say this a different way how do you define play in the context of leadership or transformation, or lessons from an origami crane?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well, very simply, we define play as practice in disguise, Whenever someone is going after a goal or attempting to do something. We know that many tries are in place, but when we started to put the book together, we were talking about the elements of play and the joy and the fun in discovering things that we like as humans. And no matter who you are or where you've been, you have some sort of there's been some sort of play in your background, and when you start to really think about the things that you loved when you were young, you can maybe draw a through line to the things that you most enjoy now, just the adult version of them to the things that you most enjoy now just the adult version of them.

Speaker 1:

One of the reasons why I wanted to include an idea around play is two reasons. One, I really believe that when adults are pursuing a dream of theirs, they often think that there's a very short bridge between the conception of the dream and the fulfillment of the dream. And what I've learned is that for dreams to be fulfilled, there's a long pathway of practice and trying and developing and growing on our way towards a dream. And I wanted to somehow capture that in the allegory. And one of the reasons why I chose a playground was because in raising our daughter, I would bring her to playgrounds.

Speaker 1:

Often Throughout the year. We'd make up games that would include other kids and you just watched how children learn to play together, how they challenge themselves, how they challenge their abilities, they challenge each other, and there was something about that playful nature that I wanted to convey in the allegory that when we pursue our dreams, it often involves other people that are around us, that are helping us in the journey. Fulfilling and pursuing our dreams is often about where we are, so context is huge and oftentimes the challenges of the playgrounds in our lives are often frustrating, but the playground sometimes doesn't really change. The resources are still there for us to try and try again. That's why I wanted play to be a main theme is because I want adults to be invited into the play process that practice provides for us.

Speaker 1:

It can be fun, it can be enjoyable as well as frustrating, but there are lessons to learn throughout.

Speaker 2:

So for me, I think about times growing up where I was forced to practice piano and, although I loved part of it, sometimes the practicing was just like oh what a drag Until I was actually playing and then I guess I would enjoy it. But for me it's not like, okay, practice is always hard and miserable. I think we wanted to say that practice is enjoyable. It draws life into us and out of us by the ways that we engage.

Speaker 1:

And through play. Our main character in the allegory is drawing her dream closer to its reality by playing, and so I think there's this unique relationship between how we play and how close we're progressing or how close our dream is coming to us. And so there's this unique interaction, and sometimes I believe that we ourselves can accelerate the fulfillment of our dream by how we play and who we're playing with.

Speaker 1:

And there are also times in life where we can de-accelerate the promise of our dream by choosing not to play, or choose to play only in hiding, where others can't be involved in and others can't help. So both of those elements are clear in this chapter of play.

Speaker 3:

I want to talk about the playground for a little bit, because I think it's a great metaphor and I want to maybe expand the definition over what we think about when we think of a playground.

Speaker 3:

One of the things I really liked you talk about in the book here is how, OC, there's a sense of safety on the playground and I could be with my friends and we're goofing around doing this stuff. When I was researching this, I came across I think it's a PhD, stuart Brown. I don't know if you've heard of this guy before. He has this whole book on play. It's called Play how it Shapes the Brain, and he emphasizes that play isn't just about specific activities but a state of mind characterized by enjoyment, suspension of self-consciousness and desire for continuation. And so talk a little bit about or maybe even describe like what's a playground that you've maybe had in your own lives, because what I want to do is sort of move this out of the like we're playing dodgeball, we're playing love a monster into what are the activities or what are the spaces or places where you can play in pursuit of that dream on a playground that is not a playground.

Speaker 1:

Does that make sense? Yeah, it certainly does. One note in the beginning here is I did reference books and articles on the psychology of play to inform how I was writing this chapter. So that theory is clearly in this chapter.

Speaker 1:

Second, why playground? The playground in the book is an actual playground that is two blocks from our house. And why that playground is important. First, it is a parametered and protected playground. All sides of the playground have something structural that are defining the actual playground itself. Second, there are three developmental areas in the playground. There's a playground for the littles, a playground for a little bit older children and a playground for much older children. And every one of those smaller playgrounds has their own challenges. That's second, because it's developmental and yet contained in the same place.

Speaker 1:

The third element that's important to our playground is there's safety and shelter in the playground, and that's illustrated by the two cottonwood trees. That safety and shelter, I believe, is necessary for people to be able to play in a way that allows them to express their freedom. Number four there are elements to play with in the playground. You see the neighborhood kids and parents. They bring their sand toys, their soccer balls and things that they play with and they leave them in the playground for other people to use as resources.

Speaker 1:

That's also important for me, and one of the things that's hidden in the book and we mentioned this once in one sentence is that there's a way out. There is a secret gate on one end of the corner of this playground. That is a way out to a different part of the world, and so those elements, I think, are really important for the reader, because playgrounds represent protected spaces. That could be anything, and in that protected space we have opportunities for growth and development. There are resources there that are part of the playground and resources that other people bring, and there's a sense of safety and protection while we play.

Speaker 1:

That's just the playground, and not to mention that the people in the playground, but that's why we think the playground is so important is because that idea can be then used to describe the places and the experiences that we each have as individuals, where we've been given a chance to play and to grow and to pursue our dreams within the metaphoric playgrounds of our lives.

Speaker 3:

So then, if there's one way out, is that the goal to get out of the playground? Or do you just go from playground to playground to playground throughout life, as you are in pursuit of different and bigger and more audacious?

Speaker 1:

dreams and that my friend is left to the reader. All right, but it is clear, Nathan, like when you have this playground there, there is one gate that leads to a greater world and we never know. Interesting.

Speaker 2:

Well, for me, the idea of the playground really came to light about I don't know, 25 years ago. 27 years ago, I was in a grad program studying administration in higher education, and in one of the classes the professor was talking about the playground of higher education and to understand who the players are. And so it wasn't just this is student life and this is faculty and this is the admin and these are the students, but what are the factors and how do you play together on this playground of higher education? And I think it's been an image that has definitely stuck with me. It was a literal playground that the story came to light. Our story came to light, but I think about how much play we've experienced at Leadership Vision and the ways that we learn as we're engaged in play. So why not take that metaphor a little bit deeper? We provide the playground and then it's up to people whether they'll engage or not.

Speaker 1:

I also had an experience in my own life where I was really, really enjoying the playground that I was in. I was having fun, the people that were around me were super energizing and creating it. I just felt like I had made it professionally and I was super excited. However, there was a person in my life who really was looking over my shoulder and had this vision that I had already utilized all the resources of my playground and was basically saying to me there's the way out. I think you need to take it.

Speaker 1:

And there are times in my life where I've really realized that, even though I feel like I'm, you know, doing really well or surrounded by great people, that I may have extinguished really all that that playground has to offer. And there's sometimes this blindness that we have when we have really reached our potential somewhere and we wrestle with you know, do I stay and continue to enjoy the fulfillment of my potential or is there something else out there that I'm just unaware of? And there was a great degree of fear and uncertainty and self-doubt when I chose to leave, and I think that there are many people who can relate to this story because we are enjoying something present. But there could be this like you know, voice within us saying but is there something more?

Speaker 1:

And I think that we pay attention to that.

Speaker 3:

This is honestly the main thing that I want to talk to you about today, because and I'm going to paraphrase this but there's this idea that if you, if you don't leave the playground, you're going to get limited by what's there. And I can't help but talk about my kids in this moment, because we are prime playground years.

Speaker 1:

You search for the best playgrounds in the world.

Speaker 3:

Yeah well, I was just going to say we drove down to Palm Springs a couple of years ago from Portland and we would literally stop. I would do all this research on where are the playgrounds like? What's a big playground, you know, not just like a little rinky dink, some swings and a slide. And so, watching the kids grow over the years and experience more and bigger playgrounds and what they can handle and it used to be I would have to help them across the monkey bars and now now they're like doing one handed jumps, american Ninja Warrior style. I'm like, how do you have that much upper body strength? And last year we had the chance to go to Europe and we went to this place called Wow Park, which is like I don't even know how it's safe.

Speaker 3:

But this, just this crazy playground I mean it wasn't even a playground necessarily, but this idea of until you try to do something harder or bigger or more difficult, you never know. And so this I mean it's underlined and highlighted and red-starred You're limited by what becomes familiar to you. So my question in all of this is how do you know when it's time to get out of the playground? Don't tell me it's left up to the reader. How do you know when you have practiced and played enough? How do you know when you're ready? Maybe you never know. How do you you always have, I mean, there's oc's got all this fear and I was like, just keep doing it, man, you're a woman you're gonna, you're gonna yeah, it's gonna be be hard, you're going to, you're going to fail, you're going to flop.

Speaker 3:

I don't remember my exact question in there, but just that idea of like when your playground is is, how do you know when it's limited to you, limiting you, versus like I'm really good at what I'm doing and I want to keep doing it because I'm really good Does that does yes.

Speaker 2:

The first question to ask is are you growing? Are you growing If you are trying new things, if you are pushing yourself in new ways? That's one thing. We meet many people who just get so comfortable that there's no surprise anymore. There's no wonder, there's no excitement. There is almost a like well, this is just where I am. That could be a good indicator.

Speaker 2:

You're ready for something new, or something new introduced in that playground? But the key question is are you growing? Have you learned the lessons that this stage has taught you? Yeah, and sometimes people stay too long and they get stuck.

Speaker 1:

Linda's dead on. Are you growing? Two ways to know if you are. To know if you're growing within your playground, is there somewhere else? Because, nathan, your question was is it time to leave? Where's their potential? Like, when do I know it's time to go?

Speaker 1:

We had this clearly illustrated within the book because when oc starts to play, she's playing by herself, isolated behind the cottonwood trees, where no one can see her, and one of our characters, turtle, leads her to the first playground, or the youngest playground.

Speaker 1:

That scene illustrates that there are people around you that can lead you to the next places of growth if you're willing to follow them. That's a key indicator for us is who is around us that can help us grow and also lead us to the place where there is growth. There's another section in this where the animals leave Oss, or the characters leave Ossi and go to another part of the playground to play without her, which happens to be the next stage of development, and she's left behind. So where are? So? Another indication to us is, as we look around in our metaphoric playgrounds, are there places that we see people with you know that are a little bit older or more experienced, have different kinds of talent, where they're growing in the expression of that, and that may be the invitation for us to go where they are, because that is also an indication of growth.

Speaker 2:

Because I think, nathan, in one of the definitions that you talked about with play was just the you kind of lose track of self almost, and you think about watching young children play and they think that you can't hear them as they're sing-songing and pretending to make meals and tea out of sand and cookies, and whatever else, and there's just such that unawareness of the outside world and this cultivation of an imagination that is unmatched.

Speaker 2:

You can't plan for it, prepare for it. You almost just drop a child in and give them some freedom, and that's what happens, and that's what our main character is doing behind the cottonwood trees. And when she is discovered, I think there was a element of surprise because she didn't realize that and you know yeah, she didn't realize that anyone else would wanna.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, she's embarrassed.

Speaker 2:

She's embarrassed like oh no oh, I found out like now, now you've it. That's another point of growth. So she almost in some ways decided to fake it until she made it right. So like yeah, like this is a game, so join in. And once again, it's this element of growth, element of learning new things, of not just getting comfortable, because I think places of comfort are the places that can stifle us the most.

Speaker 1:

And that awareness of comfort is part of what we're also asking people to consider is their own self-awareness, like self-awareness of asking yourself the question am I comfortable? Am I being challenged? Are the people around me growing Like? Looking around to the people that are around you, do they share the same experiences, do they share similar dreams? Are they progressing and growing in similar ways? Or are you the one that may be the youngest one to show up or maybe, like you're, the oldest and most experienced one to remain?

Speaker 1:

These are all self-awareness questions that we have connected to this idea of play, because sometimes when we play, we are the most experienced one who's playing. That's one level of self-awareness, and sometimes in play, when we arrive, we realize that we're the youngest or the least experienced, but we're ready, but we're ready for that next piece. And so it's self-awareness, awareness of those around you. And, third, aware of the voices of wisdom and insight and truth that are speaking to you, that are sometimes asking the right questions like hmm, well, maybe you are ready. Have you ever considered this? Have you ever considered that? And those voices are also ways to inspire us to move to different parts of the playground, because we're ready for that kind of growth and play is important because it gives us practice to fulfill our potential.

Speaker 3:

And I can't help to think of Joseph Campbell's hero's journey in this yes yes, you know, if you're not familiar with that, it's a very famous model.

Speaker 3:

I mean, every superhero movie, luke Skywalker, like so many characters, it's like there's this person who's comfortable. They're met with this challenge to accept the call. Usually there's some sort of wise mentor, and then they have to decide if they're going to rise to the occasion, so to speak. That's right. What I'm thinking about now is going back to that first episode on, or we're talking about dreams is how do you know and I'm going to figure out how to phrase this so you're in this playground, you're playing, but you're terrified to tell anyone about your dream. You're terrified of trying it, because who are you to do something? This is silly. You have a family that's dependent on your income. You can't make that leap. You can't exit the playground. What are? I don't know if you can share stories, like specific stories of you, know people or even yourself, of how do you take that leap?

Speaker 3:

Because I also came across this transitions model from William Bridges, where it talks about like what's so terrifying is this in between place where you've like you yeah, you can't quite, you haven't arrived, you're still here, and so it's just. People are too afraid to get in. So how do you does that? Does that make sense? Do you know what I'm asking here, like, how do you get someone and maybe we'll find out later with OC from? I'm playing? This is fun, but I can't turn this into a career. I can't turn this into the next thing part of my life, because I'm just too scared. There's too much at stake.

Speaker 1:

That's a great, great question, because there are several scenes in the book where OC is in that state, where she's like in the middle and you're not quite sure what happens. But there are several common things that are happening when she's in that middle state which I think are helpful to us. And that is one there are people that are supporting her in her dream. Two, there are people that are questioning, doubting and resisting her dream. But at the end of the day she needs to make the choice Like, am I going to lean into it? And I think that there are times in our lives where we're going through questions of doubt and uncertainty. And the idea that we have play in the book is we're inviting people to just try what they think the next step is and to not get too far into the book. But in this play section, osi tries again and again and there are elements where she feels that she's succeeding. There are elements where she feels that she's failing. And in this chapter we are inviting people to play.

Speaker 1:

Play is a trying different things, different ways to engage a game, different experiences, to grow and develop, to see if the dream is coming closer to them or getting further in and further away. Sometimes people get wrapped up in what the fulfillment of a dream looks like, that they miss the opportunity to experiment, practice and play. And that's why the chapter play is so important is because I believe that every time OC makes an attempt to pursue her dreams in this playground, she's testing the dreams reality or she's testing her dreams validity again and again and again. Which gives her more motivation and encouragement also gives her points of frustration, and I think that there are times in my life and people that I know where we believe that performance and perfection is the only way that a dream can be fulfilled. And in the chapter play, what we're saying is practice and play are also ways that our dream can be fulfilled.

Speaker 2:

That's right. And I would add, because, Nathan, in your question I heard the transition time that we call liminality right the time between you can't go back to what was and you can't yet go forward to the next, and I really believe that most of our life is spent in that liminal space. There's an invitation to the next point of transition, the next opportunity to grow and learn and evolve, and and so in it it's how to be a good steward of that liminal space. And I think about people who say, like, well, I love woodworking, but you know, I could never get paid for that Right, right.

Speaker 2:

And then I start hearing about how this guy makes furniture and how he spends hours after work. You know, doing this amazing like practicing this craft and you can see light in his eyes when he talks about it, and he was proud to show me some of the pieces and they were extraordinary. They were extraordinary and what he's tapping into is even space where he's carving the wood and planing it and sanding it and doing whatever you do, and he's using that time to think about really complex problems and it's what makes him really good at his job in IT, because he has that space to do it. So oftentimes we think whatever we're practicing with, there has to be a direct correlation. If I'm practicing gymnastics, I have to be a gymnast. Well, I'm six feet tall, that's never going to happen. But what would I learn from the actual practice of disciplining my body, my mind, I mean? I haven't done a cartwheel for years, but you can still do it.

Speaker 2:

Anyway.

Speaker 1:

In this transition time that you're speaking to, nathan. It's an important part of the process of play because I want to invite people to not be so like egocentric that play is only for you. Play is also a time when, by our playing, we're creating an invitation for others to play with us. I believe that sometimes that transitional period that we're feeling is the time when others are joining in, and that's part of our role is to create a play environment where people can also feel the freedom to practice and experiment right alongside of us and learn for themselves. And sometimes I believe that there's a pause in our play where we may not be making the progress that we believe is necessary to fulfill our dream, but we're actually providing the inspiration to other people to fulfill their dream.

Speaker 2:

Because play helps us practice levity, where we don't take ourselves so seriously, but maybe we take whatever we're working on seriously or those around us seriously. But the practice of levity will also I don't know maybe increase our enjoyment or increase our capacity to build relationships. That last I just. I just have too many thoughts about this and I know our time is coming close.

Speaker 3:

Well, so maybe this is just a comment, but I took Parker to see a stand-up comedy show last weekend. Of course, you did.

Speaker 3:

And it was Trevor Noah. Wow, it was absolutely amazing. So he had to read Trevor Noah's book in school and so I read it with him. The guy's got a fascinating story. Yes, oh yeah. And we've watched all of his Netflix specials. And so we were watching this comedy and you know we're laughing and cracking up, and after we were talking about it and how it felt like his first 20 minutes of a set was just talking about his day, and it was so good and so tight. And he's like how does he do that? Go to all these little comedy clubs and they just try out material. Sometimes they're reading, like these jokes they have written and if it works, if it doesn't work, they might try it dozens of times before it ends up like in a show that we saw and he's like, wow, I think they're going to turn this into a Netflix special because there was cameras. I was like, no, no, buddy, that's not how that works either.

Speaker 3:

This is then practice for the Netflix special that's coming out next year, and so the reason I'm bringing this up is because oftentimes, when we see someone at the height of their game musicians, gymnasts, comedians, ceos, whatever they've had a series of playgrounds, a series of failures, a series of opportunities to fine-tune and craft their art, we'll call it art, and often we don't get to see that process.

Speaker 3:

And so I don't know if this is a final thought, because I have more in here, but just that idea of, like, getting the courage to step out, you know, show people, you're woodworking, to bring up that example of that guy like get feedback, get whatever it is, and maybe this ties into this too but this whole idea of the map, I think, shows up here for the first time and I wanted to talk about that because I don't know that I agree, or maybe I just need more explanation that everything that you need to get there is already inside of you. I feel like I'm woefully inadequate in many areas or need additional skills or need something to get to whatever my dream might be. So why? All of our characters are made out of maps? I think we know that at that point in the story right, that's that comes in chapter one.

Speaker 3:

So how do you where's my question at? How do you reconcile or come to grips with? I need practice, I need refinement, but everything I got I need is I already got it.

Speaker 2:

What I want to say is so you think about, you know the Olympics Olympics is coming up again, but when I think about watching the Olympics last year, there was such a sense of I love the stories that get you hooked, that make you cry, that get you to cheer for that athlete even more, because you know their backstory and you know all the pain that they went through and all the rehab and coming back and what they went through with their families and whatever else. And I think we love those stories because it endears us to the characters even more. And some of those stories are the description of the maps that we carry, and so I think and Brian can add to this but when we say that the answers are inside you, they're in the map, it's almost like those pre. What do they call those? What do they call them? What's it Exposé?

Speaker 3:

Human interest stories.

Speaker 2:

So when you watch the human interest story, you are hearing elements of the map. I think we take for granted that. Oh yeah, I came from this country and I did this and I tried that.

Speaker 2:

I had to fly over here and do this, and we don't have the practice of the reflection to create the action of like oh well, yeah, I've already done that, but not this way, and so we almost discount ourselves. And so these human interest stories get us really excited about the characters and give us some insight in the maps that these athletes are created or that they have like they are yeah they are elite, these are amazing people that you think you know I could never reach that.

Speaker 2:

But sometimes you hear a story and you're like, oh yeah, me too. I grew up on a dirt road too.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The role of reflection in play is to give us a chance to ask ourselves hey, how's this going? Am I enjoying myself Right? Is my talent really being resourced here? Is the training and learning that I've gone through actually helping me, or do I need to maybe make a two-degree turn or just bend my experience one way or the other? Reflection is important because it helps us understand if we're on the right track or if it's time to try something new, and that's often determined by an understanding of how our talent and potential is growing through the practice of play.

Speaker 2:

Well and I would maybe disagree a little bit that it isn't about this reflection. It's about it's a simple reflection, like are you enjoying yourself or not? Like thumbs up or thumbs down? Not, you know. Tell me all the details about it. Like are you in a place of enjoyment? Do you lose track of time? Are you in that strength zone? And it isn't necessarily play, is just, it's practice in disguise, so you don't necessarily know how to understand it, but you're building relationships, you're building capacity, you're growing your skills, you're learning something new, you're adding to your repertoire and maybe becoming, hopefully, a better person as a result.

Speaker 3:

To close this out, I want to end on asking you and this could be a summary of something that we've already said but what does this chapter really invite all of us to do, or what would you like readers to take away specifically from this chapter?

Speaker 1:

Don't be afraid to play and to try something new in the pursuit of your dream.

Speaker 2:

Mic drop.

Speaker 3:

Do you want to add to that, Linda?

Speaker 2:

That was very succinct.

Speaker 3:

I know.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so we meet a lot of people that are so consumed with work that they don't have a hobby.

Speaker 1:

Good angle.

Speaker 2:

It is a good angle, and so there are times where we even introduce exercises when we're working with teams to get people laughing to get people engaged in a different way, way to we call it a brain break, sometimes just this opportunity to do something completely outside of the normal in order to create some kind of catalytic breakthrough. And so when you are, you know, when you, when you're with your child and they're playing like, get on, go down the slide too, or how do you not take yourself so seriously, do that?

Speaker 3:

I love that. Well, and that's maybe a good teaser for part two of this episode, where we're going to explore more of the corporate or team or organization sides of play, because I think sometimes play isn't just in pursuit of your dreams. So I'm going to go play, I'm going to go practice being a stand-up comedian, because that's what I want to do. It is a way to unlock something in your current environment that has nothing to do with it necessarily. Well, brian and Linda, thank you very much. This is exciting.

Speaker 1:

Thank you, nathan. Thank you Nathan.

Speaker 3:

And thank you for listening to the Leadership Vision Podcast, our show helping you build positive team culture. Be sure to go pick up your copy of Unfolded Lessons in Transformation from an Origami Crane. You can either click the link in the show notes or wherever good books are sold and the audio book is coming out on or around August 19th of 2025. You can also visit us on the web at leadershipvisionconsultingcom to learn more about how to put some of these practices and play in implement that into your organization. Click the link in the show notes or visit us on the web at leadershipvisionconsulting, as I said, and please share this with someone that you think could benefit from any of these ideas. I'm Nathan Freeberg. I'm Linda Schubring.

Speaker 1:

And I'm Brian Schubring.

Speaker 3:

And on behalf of our entire team thanks for listening Boom Stop.