The Leadership Vision Podcast

Leading Through Uncertainty: How to Build Trust and Clarity in Unpredictable Times

• Nathan Freeburg, Linda Schubring, Brian Schubring • Season 8 • Episode 26

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In this episode, host Nathan Freeburg is joined by Brian and Dr. Linda Schubring to unpack the impact of uncertainty on leaders, teams, and organizations. Drawing from client examples and real-world challenges, they explore the hidden consequences of uncertainty—like fractured trust and chronic stress—and share practical ways to build resilience, foster clarity, and create meaningful connections, even when everything feels unclear.

Key Topics Covered:

  • The “theme of the year” for organizations: uncertainty
  • How external disruption leads to internal breakdown
  • Hidden consequences on teams: burnout, fractured trust, decision fatigue
  • How strong leaders are choosing calm, clarity, and connection
  • The importance of wellness, boundaries, and emotional regulation
  • Building flexible systems for resilient teams

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The Leadership Vision Podcast is a weekly show sharing our expertise in discovering, practicing, and implementing a Strengths-based approach to people, teams, and culture. Contact us to talk to us about helping your team understand the power of Strengths.

Speaker 1:

You are not in charge of creating certainty for other people. You are invited to create the kind of connections that can weather whatever certainty is ahead of you, around you or within you.

Speaker 2:

You are listening to the Leadership Vision Podcast, our show helping you build positive team culture. Our consulting firm has been doing this work for the past 25 years so that leaders are mentally engaged and emotionally healthy. To learn more about our work, you can click the link in the show notes or visit us on the web at leadershipvisionconsultingcom. Hello everyone, my name is Nathan Friberg, and today on the show we are joined by our founder, brian Schubring, and our CEO, dr Linda Schubring, for a conversation about something that's affecting every single organization.

Speaker 2:

We work with uncertainty, from political tension to economic instability, global conflicts, ai and automation and just all the normal stuff that goes on in a business. With all these external forces shifting around us, it's no surprise that leaders and teams are feeling internal pressure. But how should we respond? In this episode, we're going to explore how uncertainty affects everything from decision making to team dynamics and what leaders can do about it. We'll share real examples from our clients, reflect on what we're seeing in the marketplace and offer practical ideas for fostering clarity, connection and courage when things feel unclear. Now, as you listen today, I would like you to ask yourself this question how does uncertainty show up in your life or in your work and how are you leading others through it? All right, let's get into it. Dr Linda and Brian Shubring, welcome to the Leadership Vision Podcast. I have no idea what we're talking about. Everything is up in the air. Everything is in flux. Sounds like you're uncertain. I'm so uncertain.

Speaker 2:

Just kidding, we have a very good outline here but before we get to that, can you just sort of set this conversation up? Why are we talking about this? Why are we referring to this word uncertainty, as a theme for the year? Paint the picture for us.

Speaker 3:

I'll make an attempt at that. We are recording this podcast in July of 2025. And for the last eight months, we have been so busy with clients that we have found ourselves really engaging with people and teams and organizations in a much deeper way than we have before. And, like we often do, we ask ourselves what are some of the themes that we're hearing? Because when you're doing the work, you're kind of in the middle of all that You're not really hearing clearly.

Speaker 3:

So we talk about it and what we clearly have been hearing that, if we were to choose a theme of 2025 so far with all of our clients, like you said, it is uncertainty, and the thing that I want to add to it is what we're seeing with our clients is high degrees of uncertainty and its hidden consequences, and there is so much uncertainty that organizations are dealing with much like what you mentioned earlier in your introduction, nathan, but the hidden consequences that are occurring are really concerning us, getting our attention and also giving us opportunities to help, because one of the things that we're noticing is, as we begin or as we continue to work with clients, month after month, we're seeing the consequences of uncertainty becoming more and more awakened or heightened or they're being dealt with head on, and so I really want to be able to take this time to address uncertainty, its hidden consequences and how organizations are dealing with uncertainties that are unique to their context and culture.

Speaker 1:

Because what I would add to that as well. That was a great intro, brian. And culture, because what I would add to that as well that was a great intro, brian. We have found that when our clients are saying things like we're experiencing a lot of uncertainty, what we're hearing is some of the foundational elements of business, or how people act or interact, have been completely disrupted and they're no longer reliable. And when the foundational elements get rocked, it's a different game than when you're trying to disrupt on purpose.

Speaker 1:

And so some of the things that we are learning is the tolerance that people have for uncertainty, as well as some of the maladaptive behaviors that happen in uncertainty, and some of the ways that we have met leaders that have risen above, that are taking responsibility for the things that they can control and creating pockets of certainty within the greater story of uncertainty and by way of introduction.

Speaker 3:

Another one of the things that I want to emphasize is I want to just remind us that as a culture we've emerged from a great historic uncertainty with COVID and what that did, not only to the workplace but to relationships, and how healthcare and wellbeing has become at the forefront of some of the conversations.

Speaker 3:

Many organizations haven't returned to a sense of certainty after COVID. We have another generation of the workforce that's entering into our current professional lives who have never been in a situation where there's been the certainty of showing up at a workplace. So there's uncertainty in how to introduce and welcome a new workforce and there's also uncertainty in how to take care of our emotional and physical and relational well-being, because that whole well-being conversation has emerged fast in the last three years. There's uncertainty on many, many levels. That's happening and what we're seeing is, as we're trying to address the uncertainties that we're naming and the uncertainties that you, as listeners, may be experiencing, we have not yet figured out how to answer those questions of certainty from within us. We're looking for answers outside of us and that's one of the concerns that we have is how do we look within to address the uncertainty without?

Speaker 2:

Let's start by talking about what uncertainty does to people in teams, and I'm wondering if I can have you answer like what are some of the hidden consequences of uncertainty and if you have specific examples.

Speaker 3:

Okay, we have several examples. Um, there are several clients that that we've identified in our preparation for this podcast that are dealing with uncertainty, and some of the uncertainty that people are dealing with is political and economic uncertainty and its direct impact on revenue, on funding, on opportunities within business. The consequence of that is how does an organization think of strategies and ways to do business that are not only new but are sustainable within this present context? Because that question is how do we create certainty in how we work and how we relate that's going to be sustainable, without any history or practice of whether it's going to work or not? That's a great degree of uncertainty.

Speaker 1:

I wonder if the goal is even to be certain. I think the goal instead is to grow a capacity to be able to lead in spite of uncertainty or into uncertainty, and keep people connected and help people continue to move forward.

Speaker 3:

Because we have another client that's working through uncertainties within their specific domain of expertise. Through uncertainties within their specific domain of expertise, that threat is creating fractures within the relational structure of the teams that we're working with, and so it's an uncertainty whether we can trust each other to fulfill whatever's being asked of us, and that's more of a relational threat. The consequences of that is a lack of trust with team members, a lack of reliability on how people work because they're afraid to try anything new, and one of the other consequences of that is leaders not knowing how to lead with teams that are so fractured. Hmm, oh, that's good.

Speaker 2:

Linda, when I'm stuck on, as you said, is the goal certainty? And I don't think it is Like when we first started talking about this I was like, well, hasn't everything always been uncertain? Hasn't the world always been unpredictable? In whatever the new technology is, and there's always been, I mean you could argue that this is the most certain time in world history, in one degree, just from a political standpoint Certainly uncertain yeah.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, the goal is not certainty. The goal is being slightly more comfortable with uncertainty. Is that perhaps what we're saying in this?

Speaker 1:

Or being able to rise above, or—.

Speaker 2:

To adapt and adjust.

Speaker 1:

Adapt and adjust Huh.

Speaker 3:

Or to live within.

Speaker 1:

That's good.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, to live within uncertainty.

Speaker 3:

Right, because one of the things that I believe that we're noticing is each person has their own way that they navigate uncertainty. They have specific desires and needs that they have. I think that a lot of people are learning how to live with their threat and fear that things may never be how they knew them before. How do you live with that? By finding something else, someone else or something inside of you to anchor to or to ground yourself in. Where you're finding that, hey, I'm okay, I don't feel personally threatened, I feel safe. And knowing that there's something certain about who you are as an individual will give you greater capacity to navigate the uncertainty around you Because, like we're talking about, uncertainty is here to stay. Well, uncertainty is here to stay, and it's people's natural tendency to kind of attack the problem and get rid of it instead of asking themselves well, how am I going to be present and grounded?

Speaker 3:

in myself to face not solve, but to face the uncertainty that's around me.

Speaker 1:

Because some of the elements at play are completely different. So sometimes when there's been communication breakdowns on teams because when that happens it's obvious and it happens on every team whenever you get humans together yeah, and we find that when people are hearing contradictory messages from the inside, it's easy to say, oh great, this is a communication issue. These are ways that we can address that. These are some patterns that we can put in place. These are some practices that we can add, norms that we can have around communication to improve. That is, the confusion and the changing of minds and changing of behaviors and changing of rules and regulations are coming from without like, from the outside.

Speaker 1:

They're coming from the outside and they're pressuring the group on the inside, and I think there are times where we're talking to teams and they're starting to point fingers at each other and we almost hit the hit the pause button and say, okay, pause, look around you. Is this really about you all? Or is this about the powers that be that are, that are changing and how things are continuously revolving, every day when the clock turns right, because one thing that is going to be consistent is there's always going to be uncertainty in the external world around us.

Speaker 3:

We can rely on that. That's always going to be the case. What Linda's emphasizing is how can leaders and teams ask themselves how are we going to navigate the uncertainty around us so that we can continue to grow and to develop and to meet whatever goals and objectives that we find ourselves about? And that really then trickles down into individuals asking themselves what do I need personally to navigate uncertainty, what may I need from the team members around me and how can the organization help me navigate and how can I contribute to bringing some kind of traction to navigate through uncertainty?

Speaker 1:

Because, once again, the game has changed, the context has changed, the rules of engagement have changed. So, whatever norms have been created on teams, there's almost this disruption, this reshaking of all the pieces and all the players, and that's where this greater sense of being adaptable and being able to meet the present moment, the leaders that can do that, will be the breakthrough leaders. Can we talk about some of those leaders?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I would love to hear about some examples of leaders or organizations that are doing this well.

Speaker 1:

Some of the leaders that I have talked to and I'm thinking about, in particular, a leader that I'm coaching and as I was asking questions about how they interact with conflicting messages from the outside, and this person, this leader, just said I keep the mission in mind and I choose the highest and best that day.

Speaker 1:

And there was such a resolve about this leader that it almost gave me confidence and courage as well. And so it wasn't oh, pin one against the other and figure out which one's right and which one's wrong and then stir up dissension among the team. It was I have a job to do, I have people to protect and I have a mission of why our organization was brought together in the first place and we're going to achieve it, and that kind of clear confidence just gave me encouragement in that moment.

Speaker 3:

Another opportunity that leaders have when facing uncertainty with their team members is asking individuals what they need. What is it that you need that will give you the confidence to step toward the challenges that are facing us, because we know that each person's going to have something different, that they need to feel confident or some way that they want to be understood so that their level of threat within uncertainty is being decreased. When we want people to be engaged in these challenging times, we want them to be engaged in ways that are generative and creative and collaborative, and to do that, I think leaders are tasked to create an environment where people feel that they're heard and understood, that they're not afraid to say, hey, I'm afraid too, but how can I help. And for leaders to create that space is to create an opportunity for the team members to feel that there's a leader that believes in them, despite whatever's happening in the external world.

Speaker 2:

What does that look like for a leader to lead without having all the answers, without knowing what's going to happen, without being freaked out themselves, but being able to not be like, oh no, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine but also not be like ah, we're all going to die.

Speaker 3:

Well, I think that there's a part of it is that what we have seen with many leaders is now in their own unique way. I tend to exaggerate and use hyperbole, but when way? I tend to exaggerate and use hyperbole, but when leaders I see both of you guys.

Speaker 3:

What we're seeing is that we think that when leaders do this well, they are letting their fears, their threats, their freak out moments be seen and heard by their teams and in that way, they're not only expressing I don't have all the answers, they're not only demonstrating that they are vulnerable, but it's giving permission for other people to feel that the same way. I don't think there's anything wrong with a leader freaking out for a moment to let people know that they care, they're dialed in and that they don't have the answers themselves. I think the leaders are. You know, what I hope that they don't do is say I have the answers because we don't.

Speaker 1:

Well, I think, I think there's an appropriate place for some of those Like. I think the freak out needs to happen with other like-minded leaders and not necessarily, you know, stirring up.

Speaker 3:

All the freak outs.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, all the freak outs, and I don't think it's a secret. I think it is a leader that has enough self-awareness, that knows and has practiced emotional regulation, that has practiced some good self-care, and I think self-care that looks like good boundaries and being able to ground to your values. I think it's the leaders that can show some vulnerability like this is not easy and to know Okay, so what were you going to say? Anything Cause. Then I have something else.

Speaker 2:

No, no, I'm sorry to interrupt. I just got like I keep thinking about all of Bernie Brown's vulnerability stuff and that you know we don't need to get into that, but it's like, yeah, that's, that's a part of it to be vulnerable, to not say I have all the answers, Everything's fine, but like I like that what I?

Speaker 1:

was thinking about is a lot of the leaders that we work with or that reach out to us and continue to reach out to us are what I'd like to call benevolent disruptors. And those benevolent disruptors are always trying to change and push the envelope and try new things and encourage their people to grow so that the business grows, so that the schools grow, whatever else. And what we have found now, in this period of world uncertainty, is that some of these benevolent disruptors have actually eased up. No more new initiatives this year. We're just going to clean up what we have. We're just going to be boring for a few months, and even that kind of awareness of listen, I'm going to start to say no a little bit more.

Speaker 1:

I know you're used to me saying yes to all these different things. There's a leader I'm thinking about and she just said we are just going to handle what we've handled. No, no new initiatives until the next quarter. And when we, when we hear things like that and hear stories like that and then watch the people react and respond, there is a different kind of like. Okay, then I don't have to brace for the change, I don't know at work and at home and with my family and and yeah go ahead, and what I mean it sounds like we're talking about is going from reaction to resilience.

Speaker 1:

And so is there?

Speaker 2:

yeah, because I mean, you know one models. You could just be reacting like freaking out, having like a big oh no, but how do you, how do you weather that? Are there ways to help people shift around? I'm thinking like you know the conversation we just had around play. Going back to your book, you know, clarifying values or even building systems that kind of have some of this uncertainty. You know, think about a building. They're designed to move with the wind. Like, is there some? Like you don't make the building so stiff that it's never going to move because you're not going to defeat the wind, so you move it. You make it like is there? I don't know, is there any sort of equivalent?

Speaker 2:

I'm not an architect, yeah Is there any sort of equivalent of that with teams that you can help, that we can share, Like again examples, that kind of help teams sort of build that into their natural process?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, let me set the foundation and then hand it off to.

Speaker 2:

Brian, you are an architect?

Speaker 1:

Yes, I am Because I was trying to move with the metaphor, thank you. Yes, I am Because I was trying to move with the metaphor, thank you. When you say like go from reaction to resilience, the first thing I think about is to be able to have space, and it's not like to bemoan it, but even a beat to say this is a reaction, because I'm human, because I'm afraid, because I'm threatened, because there's stress. If we just move from anxiety to adaptability right away, we've missed the moment to really say is this my fear? Is this all of our fear? Beating fast, my hands are starting to sweat. I'm feeling the tension, being able to understand quickly what might be happening and be able to name it once again, not to dwell there, but to normalize that. That is a human reaction. Then gives way to all right now. What are we going to do Now? What kind of plan can we make going forward?

Speaker 2:

And that's what I want to end on, because there is hope, there is a way forward.

Speaker 1:

That's right.

Speaker 2:

And so what gives you hope when you think about this problem, this theme of the year and uncertainty? How would you leave our listeners with hope, with a promise, with whatever tips, tricks?

Speaker 3:

Well, the first thing yeah, the first thing I would invite people and leaders to do is to consider that uncertainty affects the whole person. The uncertainty isn't just affecting the person that shows up at work. It's affecting their relationship with their families, the people that they live with, the communities that they're involved in. It's kind of an all-encompassing reality, because there's uncertainties that people are trying to navigate that we may never know of. There are other elements at play that are still unknown and are a mystery. So consider the whole person's experience with uncertainty.

Speaker 1:

The second one is burnout. Like paying attention to symptoms of burnout.

Speaker 3:

It's like.

Speaker 1:

Sometimes we'll see burnout first physically, where we see leaders like wow, they look tired, they look like they've not slept. There might be a lot going on and oftentimes we just can't hide the physical impact of the stress that we might be under. And so, being aware of points of burnout, I think it's more normalized. It's not just hidden away right now where it's like no, I'm tired, I just need a beat, Like give me a second. And ways that we are trying to work with leaders, give them some permission to just not run hot and extreme all the time, but to find places like like a leader we met with a couple of weeks ago and she just said I finally just had a attitude adjustment and I wasn't going to respond so intensely anymore that this was, I wasn't going to fight it, I was just going to learn how to adapt within the new confines it.

Speaker 3:

I was just going to learn how to adapt within the new confines, Because being exposed to prolonged uncertainty leads people to chronic stress and anxiety, where they're living in constant states of fight or flight, which isn't healthy for people on really any level.

Speaker 3:

And that's why another way to emphasize how there is hope is to consider and emphasize wellness with people, like giving people permission to take a break and whatever wellness looks like to the person. How can we amplify that and give people the opportunity to pursue well and to be healthy is a release valve for some of the symptoms of chronic stress and anxiety or connection.

Speaker 1:

There was some company I was just reading about on LinkedIn where they give each employee a hundred bucks every month and they they have to use that money. Yes, they have to use that money to do something with a colleague, and right. So it's obviously expense that way or whatever. But it's not just oh so that you can help your own bottom line, but it's a specific investment into a group of people or a small group of people.

Speaker 2:

One of the things my wife's company did a couple years ago coming out of the pandemic, was they have a wellness week where the entire company shuts down. And what's so great is it's not just like a vacation week where people are still like, hey, I know you're on vacation, but can you quickly look over the slide deck or whatever.

Speaker 2:

And it's so good for morale that people come back so much more energized and so ready to go to town Cause they're like nobody could email me, Nobody like was bugging, Like it was just it was so great. So, whatever opportunities we have for that, any final thoughts here? I know that we've kind of just asked. I just kind of asked you for some like quick takeaways, but is there any like kind of just asked? I just kind of asked you for some like quick takeaways, but is there any like kind of last word that either of you would like to leave on this, Because this isn't a topic we're obviously going to, you know, tie up and put a bow on. It's just sort of this ongoing thing. But what would be, I don't know, maybe a final thought you'd have to leave people with.

Speaker 1:

You are not in charge of creating certainty for other people. You are not in charge of creating certainty for other people. You are invited to create the kind of connections that can weather whatever certainty is ahead of you, around you or within you.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for listening to the Leadership Vision Podcast, our show helping you build a positive team culture. If you found value from this episode about uncertainty and would like more resources to help build your team, you can click the link in the show notes or visit us on the web at leadershipvisionconsultingcom. We would also appreciate it if you could share it with someone that you think would benefit from this. Also, follow us on the socials, sign up for our free email newsletter and if you haven't yet picked up your copy of Unfolded Lessons in Transformation from an Origami Crane, I encourage you to do that. Also, link the show notes or wherever good books are sold. I'm Nathan Friberg, I'm Linda Schubring and I'm Brian Schubring, and on behalf of our entire team, thanks for listening.

Speaker 3:

Thanks for listening.