The Leadership Vision Podcast

Unfolded: Why “Trying” Is the Courageous Middle Step Toward Transformation

• Nathan Freeburg, Linda Schubring, Brian Schubring • Season 8 • Episode 32

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In this episode of The Leadership Vision Podcast, Nathan Freeburg talks with Dr. Linda and Brian Schubring about Chapter 3 of Unfolded: Lessons in Transformation from an Origami Crane, Try.

They explore why trying is more than practice, how to handle the “messy middle” where doubt and fear creep in, and why setbacks are often signs of growth. You’ll also hear how community and self-compassion can give leaders the courage to try again.

What You’ll Learn:

  • Why “try” is practice with intention.
  • How to navigate the messy middle of growth.
  • Why self-doubt may actually signal progress.
  • The role of community and self-compassion in transformation.

Key Quotes:

  • “The dreams that actually come true are those that step forward and try.” – Dr. Linda Schubring
  • “Self-doubt and shame are indications we’re making progress.” – Brian Schubring

Resources & Links:

🎉 Unfolded is a National Bestseller!
#1 in Business & #5 Overall on USA Today
#17 on Publisher’s Weekly Nonfiction
📘 Grab your copy + get the FREE Reflection Guide!

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The Leadership Vision Podcast is a weekly show sharing our expertise in discovering, practicing, and implementing a Strengths-based approach to people, teams, and culture. Contact us to talk to us about helping your team understand the power of Strengths.

Speaker 1:

I think the dreams that actually come true are those that step forward and try, and so the forward momentum is not just because I kept thinking about it and I just kept dreaming about it, but I took it to the playground and made it happen is that intersection where people need to stop and really consider that middle ground of going from the origin story of your dream to the fulfillment of the dream.

Speaker 2:

This try chapter really helps people embrace that messy middle that we all experience and that's often the place where people give up or they lose their direction, or the voices of doubt and despair overtake and it's kind of stopped. So that's why this chapter is important.

Speaker 3:

You are listening to the Leadership Vision Podcast, our show helping you build positive team culture. Our consulting firm has been doing this work for the past 25 years so that leaders are mentally engaged and emotionally healthy. To learn more about our work, you can click the link in the show notes or visit us on the web at leadershipvisionconsultingcom. Hello everyone, my name is Nathan Freeberg and in this episode of the Leadership Vision Podcast, we're exploring what it really means to try, not just once, but over and over again, as a posture of learning, growth and courage.

Speaker 3:

Based on chapter three of Unfolded Lessons in Transformation from an Origami Crane. We're talking with Dr Linda and Brian Schubring about how trying is not a measure of success or failure, but a necessary step in becoming who we're meant to be. Our dreams are the map, play is the practice and trying is how we begin to walk the path. Today we'll unpack why trying matters, how to handle the doubt of others and why sometimes we have to refold ourselves into a new shape to keep going. Brian and Linda, welcome back to the Leadership Vision Podcast.

Speaker 3:

I was going to hold up our book here but I don't have the cover on it, because I took it on a trip so that I could take pictures of it and just that part of it, but anyway. So here's, you can see it in the spine here. This is the book of Unfolded. I was trying so hard to use this as a visual prop, but I failed, so but that doesn't matter, try again.

Speaker 2:

Check the link in the show notes where you try again, it doesn't matter.

Speaker 3:

We're talking about chapter three today, and chapter three, I feel, was the chapter that how do I say this when I live most of my life. You try this. That doesn't work. You try this that doesn't work, you try this. Oh, that kind of worked. Let's maybe adjust that and adapt that High level. Before we get down into some of our talking points here, why is this chapter in the book at all?

Speaker 1:

At all.

Speaker 3:

Wow, that sounds like fighting words, like I mean, you know, just yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, why is it there? Well, you know, the first chapter is dream. It starts with that, the unlocking your imagination, beginning to think about the kind of dreams that you were living. And then the next chapter is play, and that was practice in disguise. So we talked at length about what play looks like and it's kind of the lose track of time and enjoying and practicing chapter, the fun chapter, right. And the third chapter is try, and that is practice with intention. And if you think of play as practice in disguise, where try is more intentional practice, I like the research from Keegan and Leahy that talk about and everyone in culture and they talk about deliberate practice are at play here. In the chapter called Try, which is practicing with intention, you have a little bit more direction, a little bit more motivation, and it's not just so that we're having fun, but you're really trying to take steps to the actual flight.

Speaker 3:

So is there an element where you go into trying? You said it's with intention, so you're not just. You know well, let me back up. Are you still on the playground?

Speaker 1:

to use our analogy here, you're still on the playground. Yes, you're still on the playground.

Speaker 2:

The chapter try is really important in the book because this is the arc of the story that is maybe considered the flyover states, when you're talking to someone about how they achieve their dreams.

Speaker 2:

Because, oftentimes people talk about how they had this amazing dream and how they started to like really go for their dream and then all of a sudden they're wherever the dream was supposed to end and they forget to tell the story of what happens in the messy and mysterious and meaningful middle. And I really believe that the chapter tri is that intersection where people need to stop and really consider that middle ground of going from the origin story of your dream to the fulfillment of the dream. This tri chapter really helps people embrace that messy middle that we all experience and that's often the place where people give up or they lose their direction or the voices of doubt and despair overtake and they just kind of stop. So that's why this chapter is important.

Speaker 1:

From my perspective, as we were writing this chapter and I was, as I was thinking about try and all the ways that we practice it's when practice gets real, when it's not just messing around on the keyboard, but it is. Oh, you are preparing for your audition, you are preparing for something a little bit more meaningful. This is when it starts to get real.

Speaker 3:

Huh, Linda, I like what you said about. I forget exactly what you said, but something about like play with purpose or like it's getting real it feels like we've gone intentional.

Speaker 3:

It feels like we've gone from. I have this dream to do this thing. I mean you're messing around, you're kind of doing this stuff. And then this tri-chapter. You know it starts with. Several seasons have passed, so oc has been playing for quite a while, correct. But now this tri chapter, it gets real, it gets. Maybe there's some, some stakes, there's something on the line how do we yeah?

Speaker 3:

yeah, go well. I'll just say, how do we get people to that point or realizing that you know the first time that it's real and there's something on the line? It might not go well, and so don't give up and like all that. Like what's that transition point for folks? Because I think I mean correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels like chapter three is where the dream can either die because you're like, ah, it's too hard, or where, like you know, it blossoms because you're like, ah, it's too hard, or where, like you know, it blossoms when you think of the like.

Speaker 2:

That flywheel analogy like this is just getting the momentum going. Yeah, that's what this chapter's about. It's like everything's in place, all the right components are there. I think that there are many people that have done, you know, all the like. They've done the necessary work to bring them to where they are and now it's getting real. Like now, the pressure is more intense, you're closer to the opportunity and you not only see with more clarity what your dream could be, you also begin to see some of the obstacles that are getting in the way differently than you did before. Yeah, because, side note, like before now, the cottonwood trees weren't an obstacle, they're just in the background. Now the cottonwood trees become a player.

Speaker 1:

In the way.

Speaker 2:

They're in the way it runs into them yeah.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And it's through the branches of the trees that OC sees the plane. So it's like when you're getting closer to the fulfillment of the dream, sometimes you're seeing through the challenges where before there were obstacles, and now it's like, oh, I can see the way there. Now you look at it differently.

Speaker 1:

I like to think of this chapter as the one that's in living color, as the one that's in living color, the one where all your senses are amplified, where there is an intensity.

Speaker 1:

To all the shapes and shadows there is an intensity to the voices that are affirming and encouraging, and there is an intensity to the shame, doubt, judgment, criticism, negativity. I might as well just pick up my toys and go home. And when you are about to do something meaningful, I mean still when I take the stage, there is still a heartbeat that I can see.

Speaker 2:

I can see it too.

Speaker 1:

That I in you or me.

Speaker 2:

I can see it um that I in you or me.

Speaker 1:

I can see in your face where it's just, and I've come to terms with this is this big heartbeat, is my body getting ready for something I really care about? Uh, that I'm stepping closer to my dream, that I'm stepping closer to extending the message of how we have wrestled with and learned about true transformation. And so when I think about that, when I think about the ways that I try and I continue to hone my craft and practice, my facilitation and dial in the ways that I listen to people, it's almost like all my senses are electric. All my senses are electric.

Speaker 2:

You're resonating with this Yep, and when that's happening, it's because the environment has changed or the environment is evolving and the people that you're working with are different, like your senses are heightened, because there's something happening not only within you in anticipation of this next step in pursuit of your dream, but there's also something happening around you that's also changing when the opportunity to try begins to become closer to who we are and the opportunity is getting closer. I think that there is this awareness, like now's my moment, like something is about to change and there's physiological reactions that are happening when try is available to us. And there's physiological reactions that are happening when try is available to us. There's emotional realities, there's like an intellectual focusing that's happening. So there's so many things that are happening to us as human beings when this moment of try is presenting itself, that we we we do pay attention in a different way.

Speaker 2:

The threats that were around us, you know, two months ago, weren't necessarily that big of a deal, but now that we're in the bigger playground, when there's more at stake and the heights are higher and the challenges are greater, things just look differently now, and that's one of the things to pay attention to is that when we are in pursuit of the dream. There's the fun, imaginative part of the beginning dream. There's the fun, imaginative part of the beginning. But now, when it becomes closer to really testing the validity and legitimacy of your dream, that testing is going to be a proving ground on where you are excelling and where you are not yeah, well, and there's a the doubt and like self-judgment really creeps in.

Speaker 3:

I mean there's I forget exactly what she says, you know just crashing the ground, second guessing herself Like how do you you, me, all of us get past that? Because you have this dream that's theoretical, you're playing without stakes and all of a sudden there's some skin in the game when we're actually trying. And how do you help people get past? Like, oh my gosh, what a dumb dream. Why did I even think this? I fell, I crashed, I hit a tree, I whatever. How do you get past that? Like, how do you prevent that internalization of those loud, cranky um fox voices?

Speaker 2:

nathan, the, the self-doubt and shame, I think, are indications that we're making progress. What I think? That the doubt and the shame and the questions we have of ourselves are a sign that we're making progress, because one of the things that we've written into the book is when OC begins to question, the first thing she's questioning is her shape, so it isn't necessarily the voices around her. She's getting closer to her dream and she's realizing wait, maybe the shape that I'm in isn't going to get me to where I'm going. So something about how she's showing up that's being inspired by her vision, because she sees the plains through the trees she's realized that her shape may not be what is there.

Speaker 2:

And that level of self-doubt was reflective and then reinforced by the voices that were around her. And that's a sign that she's making progress, because she's learning something. She's learning the reality that the shape that she's in today isn't the shape that's going to make her find her way. There's something that's going to have to happen. And that awareness of the messaging and the self-doubt and the external criticism is a sign that we're about to change again, like there's something that's going to happen. It's the prelude to the next iteration of our dream. Nathan, I see you squirming.

Speaker 3:

I mean it's human. I'm just thinking of the. You know the voices inside your head telling you that you're no good, that you're, you know garbage. And then you're saying oh, that's a good thing, that means you're making progress.

Speaker 2:

Because she asked? Because in that moment she begins to ask for help. Now that help may not be directed at anyone in particular, but she just begins to ask for help from the people around her.

Speaker 1:

Because I think that the tri-chapter there's almost a paintbrush that you could brush imposter syndrome.

Speaker 3:

Oh, I mean yeah.

Speaker 1:

Brush imposter syndrome, like, oh like. Why am I doing this? I don't know if I can and whenever a leader quickly disqualifies themselves and says, like it's just imposter syndrome.

Speaker 1:

I just want to look at them and say, no, it's try, You're just trying. You're trying and you're aware that either you need a little bit more skill, a little bit more practice, or you need the help of others in order to get there. That you do not have what is inside you to be able to bring you to the next step, but rather imposter syndrome is this invitation to lean in a little bit more to ask for help and to realize that you have something beautiful to offer and you don't have to offer everything.

Speaker 1:

You don't have to be that, be all, end all.

Speaker 2:

And in the midst of all this, trying is a great opportunity for self-compassion and self-acceptance. Because in the midst of all of this, in the beginning of this chapter, you have this moment when Owl says to OC be gentle to yourself. Even before the chapter is really unfolded at all, you get this immediate check of doubt and uncertainty are arising, self-criticism is there and you have this moment of no wait. Just be gentle. Be gentle and don't be judgmental.

Speaker 1:

I was in a coaching session with a leader today, a leader who, in a lot of ways, kind of rose pretty quickly just because she is so wildly talented. And sometimes, when you rise quickly, there's this sense of like well, you're too young, like how did you get here to this point?

Speaker 2:

Good point.

Speaker 1:

And my message to her and I repeated it several times was you deserve this. So, remember like you deserve it. You are deserving of this opportunity to play in this playground, and it takes a village to quiet the voices that prevent us from really trying.

Speaker 3:

It takes a village to quiet the voices, right? So how do you find a village that you can be vulnerable with, to say this is my dream, I'm trying something, it's not going perfectly. You're telling me, that's a good thing. I feel like I didn't do a good job, but you're saying, oh, that's a good thing. How feel like I didn't do a good job but you're saying, oh, that's a good thing. How do you then know who to reach out to for help, where to reach out to for help? How do you not just question your whole dream from the get-go?

Speaker 2:

Good question, nathan, because that's also in the book when the questioning begins. There's also a need for discerning, because when OC is asking for help in her reshaping, there are several voices that come to her side and she has to discern who's going to help. And at that moment you may not know the voices that will be helpful and the voices that will be hurtful. But it's in the process of pursuing the dream, it's in the process of making progress that sometimes those friendships are tested and tried, and so too are the voices.

Speaker 2:

And in the unfolding process that's happening through trying, like the trying to fly, the reshaping that's happening during the chapter is all in attention, in attention to the different voices that are there. And what I I think happens to us as people is that when we really begin to make some movement in progress towards a goal and objective, towards a dream, there are some people that we're going to rely on and ask for help and there are others that we're just going to be like. I'm not sure if that voice is helpful anymore, which doesn't mean that they're a bad person. It could just be the wrong timing. That's perfectly okay and that's in this chapter.

Speaker 1:

I think about your question, nathan, about vulnerability, and I think just to try is being vulnerable, just to put yourself out there is being vulnerable.

Speaker 1:

And I think sometimes there are people that are so exuberant to help us with our dreams, to help us achieve that, almost lay everything out on a platter for us, and sometimes, in their exuberance, they are almost a lawnmower. Sometimes, in their exuberance, they are almost a lawnmower and they are mowing down every opportunity for you to learn, grow, try and be better. And so I think about when you're helping someone else in their season of try. How do you not want that dream more than they do, to allow the person with the dream to really pursue? Now there's a part in the chapter where spoiler alert but it doesn't go so well. It doesn't go so well, and what happens is the characters give OC some space. They give her some space. That's when the voice of wisdom comes in. That's when she can almost hear herself in a different way.

Speaker 2:

She can decide is she, you know, gonna, you know, connect in a different way, or or lean forward I mean there's a question here because in the process of trying, we are going through our own adaptations on reshaping, showing up differently and those types of changes are, you know, some people just are afraid that you know it it might hurt, like in in quotes, like how can we ask that? Cause that's important. And then the, the jumpstart, I, I. What's important for me is that sometimes we, we think we're at the end and and we skip some steps and we think we're there and and so with the one crane wing, one plane wing, or maybe it's just important to me because, like in my story, like how many false starts have I had because I thought I was ready yeah, when hurting, no, doesn't hurt, but it's just uncomfortable.

Speaker 3:

It's like also defining what that means, or understanding, like what are what's pain versus discomfort and what's your comfort level with either of those things.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, cause I think that when YC asked the question, I think that there are sometimes when others think that we're pain and we're not, because we maybe are just jacked up on endorphins, because we're pursuing our dream. It's not painful for us, but others may perceive it and we're really in our flow or in our zone. But the invitation, I think in this moment is that there are going to be changes that all of us go through in the pursuit of our dream and some are just to be uncomfortable. And that doesn't mean that the dream is wrong.

Speaker 1:

It's part of the process well, that's where the growth happens. Yeah, yeah, right, if you, if you nailed it every time, that would be boring. Well, it's also just not realistic I mean you know, it's just good editing.

Speaker 3:

It's just not, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's just not uh, you know, I think baseball is such an interesting analogy here, because you fail seven times out of 10 and you're considered successful.

Speaker 2:

That's successful yeah.

Speaker 3:

That's success. Well, brian, linda, one thing I want to ask you that we sort of talked about in the episode we did on folding was there's a spot in this chapter where I think Osi's on Golden's back running towards a tree. It's a plane and it's just like what is she tried? What like? What does that have to do with this idea of trying Like?

Speaker 2:

that seems like uncomfortable and painful and just like, quit, now it is all those things, and one of the things that also is is a a lesson to us that many times people believe that they have all the answers in place, that their dream is really close, and in reality they're only halfway there. When you think about the shape of OC, like you said, one plane wing, one crane wing, and this new idea let's get on Golden's back, and that's going to help me do this. How many of us try something new, a new innovation? We think we're there, we're super excited, only to realize that we're right in the middle. And I think it's that point where people get excited around you and they're encouraging you to go.

Speaker 2:

You tend to listen to them more, yet there are people there that are questioning and you kind of ignore them, you kind of go for it, and I think that in this moment, we can all relate to that euphoric, instantaneous success that's not sustainable, that ends with some bruises and bumps along the way, and then we realize that yep, the dream is still alive. I may not have achieved exactly. What I want is that tipping point where the story then changes and there's a new vision for how this dream is going to become a reality.

Speaker 1:

Because in this chapter, tri, I kind of see elements of a dress rehearsal, elements of a practice that maybe is like a scrimmage, that is actually preparing you for the game, where you are almost embodying some of the different pieces, not just the mental game of preparing in your mind, but actually the physical game of trying. And what happens there, especially in the context of community, is that you try a few things and what happens is other people observe and other people have some perception they're challenging you. Know what your intentions are. Did you try to do that? That was really good? Whoa, that was a little bit too much.

Speaker 1:

And what happens is sometimes characters in our story help us see our identity a little bit more clearly. So it's not just like oh, it was like one plain wing, one origami wing, and we'll figure this out. It was the small elements, like YC, young Crane looking at OC and saying, sister, you're made of a map, as the wing was being unfolded a bit, and it was almost like, yeah, great, thanks, thanks for being a mirror, thanks for being a mirror to me. I don't know how to integrate that right now because I'm in the middle of practicing with intention, but being able to reflect on the voices that speak to us in who we are, speak to us about who we are and call us into that next stage and realizing, like well, that some of your comments are noise and some of your comments are necessary and some of your comments are necessary, and how do I listen to the both of them and use it to improve my performance?

Speaker 3:

That's good. To wrap things up, I'm wondering, if you could, I want to read a short paragraph about trying and just get your hot takes on it. So trying isn't about getting it right. It's about movement, about trusting that every step, even the wobbly, painful ones, leads us closer to our true shape. What we try, how we try and who we become in the process is the real story. When we look at our map and listen to its quiet guidance, we'll find the courage to try again, this time with more clarity and more kindness.

Speaker 2:

That's good Thoughts, the courage to try again. Yeah, that's what I think. That's what stands out to me in this paragraph, because, as you're turning the pages of the chapter, try I feel you're watching the courage of OC. Build and build, and build.

Speaker 1:

And Nathan, as you were reading it, I went a little bit in a different direction, I guess, and I was hearing this like where do you put the emphasis in? Why try? So if you say something like, well, why try, or why try, or why try, or why try, and I think that there are times where you almost have to have a sit down conversation with yourself or look at yourself in the mirror and tell yourself that the dream is alive within you. You have been practicing, you have been taking steps towards this, and I think the dreams that actually come true are those that step forward and try. And so the forward momentum is not just because I kept thinking about it and I just kept dreaming about it, but I took it to the playground and made it happen.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I love it. Well, Brian and Linda, thank you so much. Thank you, thank you, nathan, and thank you for listening to the Leadership Vision Podcast.

Speaker 2:

Dear God, I've only danced for eight years.

Speaker 3:

And thank you for listening to the Leadership Vision Podcast, our show helping you build positive team culture. For more resources about trying, about finding and discovering your playground, you can click the link in the show notes or visit us on the web at leadershipvisionconsultingcom. Please share this podcast with someone that you could benefit from, this message of trying or any of our other resources. You can click the link in the show notes for more about Unfolded, and please pick it up wherever good books are sold. My name is Nathan Freeberg. I'm Linda Shubring.

Speaker 2:

And I'm Brian Shubring.

Speaker 3:

And on behalf of our entire team, thanks for listening, trying to listen.

Speaker 2:

There's always that person, that's fine, that's fine with us.

Speaker 1:

Better luck next time.