Why Place Matters: Notre Dame, Symbols, and the Spaces That Shape Our Leadership

Nathan and Brian revisit a 2019 conversation after Nathan’s recent family trip to Paris and his first in-person encounter with Notre Dame’s rose window—the inspiration for the Leadership Vision logo. They explore why place matters for leaders and teams, considering it as an anchor, symbol, intersection, and invitation. From the transept metaphor of waiting to the role of shared team retreats and simple artifacts, this episode offers a practical lens for integrating place into culture.

What You’ll Learn

• How physical spaces and symbols shape identity and leadership
• Why returning to meaningful places (pilgrimage) deepens clarity and connection
• Ways to create “shared places” and artifacts for your team
• Reflection prompts to identify the places shaping you now

Reflection Questions

1. What places have shaped who you are—and why do they matter now?
2. Which “shared place” could your team adopt (and regularly return to)?
3. What symbol or artifact could serve as a daily reminder of your values?

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Chapters

• 1:46 Framing The Power Of Place
• 3:04 Paris As Personal Bedrock
• 7:39 Notre Dame, Symbols, And Identity
• 9:24 Place As Practice For Leaders
• 11:24 Using Place To Learn About Ourselves
• 13:04 Awe, Smallness, And Perspective
• 16:14 Many Meanings In Shared Spaces
• 19:08 Pilgrimage, Anticipation, And Renewal
• 21:32 Shared Places Strengthen Teams
• 23:16 Closing Reflections And Next Steps

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:53

You are listening to the Leadership Vision Podcast, our show helping you build positive team culture. Our consulting firm has been doing this work for the past 25 years so that leaders are mentally engaged and emotionally healthy. To learn more about our work, you can click the link in the show notes or visit us on the web at Leadership Vision Consulting.com. Hello everyone, my name is Nathan Freeberg, and in today's episode, we're exploring the idea of place. Those physical spaces that shape us, that mark us, and become part of who we are. Sometimes a place is a cathedral, a mountain, or a childhood home. Other times it's an office, a retreat space, or even a symbol that anchors our team. Recently, I was in Paris, France with my family and had the opportunity to see Notre Dame Cathedral and the Rose Window in person for the very first time. It was an incredible experience and it immediately reminded me of a conversation that Brian and I recorded back in 2019, shortly after the fire at Notre Dame, when we reflected on the power of symbols and the story behind our own leadership vision logo, which was inspired by that quatre foil at the center of the very same rose window. So today I wanted to revisit that 2019 conversation with Brian, not only to reflect a Notre Dame in our logo, but more importantly to explore how place influences our stories, our teams, and the way we lead. As you know, because we've talked about this extensively, I was recently in one of your most favorite places in the entire world, Paris, France. First time I've ever been there, and I loved it. Have you uh ever gone to Paris and come back and be like, eh, I don't think we need to go back there anymore?

SPEAKER_01: 2:47

No, I get to Paris and think I'm never going back there anymore. Meaning here.

SPEAKER_00: 2:51

Here. I know. I know. We were there uh just this past August, so about a little over a month ago, and we've already talked about this a lot, but I was just so blown away by how many other places in the world it feels like are trying to emulate Paris. Or they're like kind of like there's a few spots here in Portland that have a lot of like little outdoor cafes, and by a lot, I mean like three in a row. And I was like, oh, this reminds me of that place on Blah Blah Blah Street in Portland, or this reminds me of that little section of Disneyland, or this reminds me of that place we were at in this other city, this town, or you know, whatever it is. And Malia was like, Yeah, they're all trying to be Paris. This is like Paris invented this whole like cafe culture, being outside, slowing down uh the pace of life, and just being a place where you can come and kind of well, I guess, rest, reflect, whatever you want. So before we get into all this stuff about place, like what I I don't know, in a I don't know if you can make it a brief word, but like what does Paris mean to you?

SPEAKER_01: 3:58

What does Paris mean to me? How's that for God? Um how's that for a quick start? Paris has a foundational element in my life because when I when I go to Paris, it's perhaps the place that has the most bedrock to it when it comes to understanding who I am. Interesting. Um Paris is probably one of the cities in the world that I've have visited the most. We get there about every other year at least. And when I go there, I feel instantly at home, but it's not in a way that is like, you know, this enthralled and in awe. It is just this sense of grounding and firm footing that I have when I'm there. And I can't specifically say what the individual elements are. It's just many, many elements layered on top of each other that just means so much to me. And part of it is because Paris has also served as an intersection or a hub, if you will, to all the other travels that we've done throughout Europe. We either begin in Paris and go out from there, or we end in Paris and come home from there. So there seems to be like this intersection of we always are stopping through there for some reason. So at any era and epoch of my life, uh, Paris has played a significant role. The place, the people, the culture, the language, and the things that have happened. So it has a very bedrock kind of impact on who I am as a person.

SPEAKER_00: 5:26

I like that. And Paris is uh for the purposes of this idea of place, that's kind of your place. And so what we're asking people to do here today is just sort of think about a place that has some sort of anchoring, grounding. Uh, like you said, back in that 2019 conversation after Notre Dame burnt, which that's that was almost six, a little over six years ago, and it's just amazing. We we can't get into that, but the restoration is absolutely amazing. So in that episode, we talked about logo and symbols, and the leadership vision logo is from the Rose window, which is the south big window when you walk in and turn to the right, and I had a chance to see it in person. And it was so cool for me hearing you tell this story for the first time, probably back in 2008, as just this sort of random thing that for I don't know how many years is like, all right, drag this onto our blog post, drag this onto our social media. Like, I've seen this image so many times, and then to see it in person, I was like, huh. Yeah, look at look at that. That's you know, all of that meaning. But I'm I where I want to go to this with this conversation today is uh so back in 2019, we talked about kind of that anchoring place in leadership visions identity. I'm curious now, six years later, and the company has gone through several changes of identity. I'm curious how your anchoring idea, your idea of place, physical or symbolic, whatever it is, how has that changed? How has that deepened? How has that become something that you know other leaders can think about to enhance or augment their leadership in some way?

SPEAKER_01: 7:11

Well, how it's changed over time is it's changed in its practice. Every time Linda and I introduce ourselves in front of a group, regardless of size, we'll talk about how each of us have our own orientation to the work that we do, where Linda approaches people first, I approach place first. So my understanding of the role that place plays, not only with within my life, but to help other people understand the way place plays a shaping element in their life, that's where the deepening has happened. Yes, it's a it is the symbol of the company. Like I knew that that was the symbol, you know, 26 years ago. Um, and the symbolic nature of place, I think, is also important. And that's the bridge that I want to create is specific places can symbolize moments and times. Places can also symbolize great periods of our life. And what I would challenge our listeners to consider is what are some of those places that have really shaped who you are, where you would say, without that place, I wouldn't be the person that I am. And then to ask a second question: what is it about that place that has had such a shaping influence and why is that important for me today? So when we take Notre Dame, for example, the reason why it's so important for me is because you know, these medieval cathedrals are built in the shape of a cross, and the center of that cross is called the transept. And so when you sit in the transept, you are literally in the center of this great intersection. And that to me is so huge as an interpretive part of who I am as a person, is many places in my life are important because they serve as intersections. An intersection I don't that I don't have to move through, but an intersection that I can wait in to wait for and answer. And Nathan, so many times when I've sat in that transept, I I've sat there wondering what's next, or wondering how did I get here, or wondering who's coming into this place that's going to be with me for this next era of my life. So that that waiting in place, the receiving in place, that's how my definition has changed and evolved over time.

SPEAKER_00: 9:28

Yeah, that I that idea of transformation is so real, and I can't help but think about how in folded Yulinda describe life's folds as shaping how we are. And so I'm wondering how do those physical places, cathedrals, you know, mountains, you know, childhood homes, all that stuff I mentioned in in the in the intro, how how do those places so now not for you, but you know, for someone else, how do we use those experiences, those places to teach us something about ourselves, to teach us um who we are? And, you know, one of the big ideas in the book is that we're made of these maps and that everything that we need is inside of us. How can we maybe identify a couple of those and then use them as teachers?

SPEAKER_01: 10:15

Places help us understand how we're feeling. Uh, places can help us find clarity into what we're thinking. Um, places are also full of people and the roles those people play. And I also believe that places are invitations to engage the transcendent, like something much bigger than where we are right now. And that place in Notre Dame, it represents all those things. It's an emotional experience, it's relational because there are people there that gather from around the world representing a collective culture and individual cultures. Being in Notre Dame itself like focuses my thinking and expands it. And it's also a transcendent experience, a reminder that there's something greater that's happening here. So paying attention to how you're feeling, paying attention to what you're thinking about, paying attention to the people that are with you, the people that are around you, and the vast expanse of these places. That's one of the ways that we can receive the meaning that places have to offer. Nathan, it's like when you and I were talking about when you're in the Alps, was it in Switzerland with your kids? Yeah. And your kids asking, is it real? Like, like in that moment, you know, what was it? Was it the ex the the the bigness that they were overwhelmed with? Or like what was that experience like for them? Like, how did that place evoke that comment?

SPEAKER_00: 11:34

Yeah, what was so crazy. So we stayed this little this little village, Mirin, up in the Alps, and we were like just on the side of the mountain, and we had this beautiful clear day, and they're like, This doesn't seem real. It seems like a painting. My 12-year-old was like, Is you know, is this in HD? And I was just so like, these kids HD. And we live on the West Coast, like we live in a beautiful place, but there was something about the bigness and our smallness. We did a bunch of hikings in the mountain, and we just I think felt so small. The kids were like, This is almost so beautiful, it must be, I don't know, AI generated or or something else. But it was, I mean, all of us, all six of us, like this, that was our that was our place on this trip. It was for so many different reasons. You know, when when we think about back on like memories that we've had in our life, is like what was it that that caused us to pause? What was it that made us think about who we are and how we exist in the world, how we interact with people, what role did we have to play? You know, all of those things. And sometimes I wonder if we we gloss over those and we are just on to the next thing and we don't take time to really sit and appreciate and realize oh, this this part of my life, this this place, like whatever, that wasn't just flyover. That was like a profoundly a big part of who I am today. And I do that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01: 13:06

That's the power of yeah, that totally makes sense, Nathan. That's the power of place. The questions that you're asking are the questions that we all ask ourselves, and it happened in a place that put the daily concerns that we carry into their right perspective. Yeah, you know, sometimes we think our concerns about or whatever it is are mountains, like they're that big in our imagination, but then when you're in a specific place, it really resets our misconception of how important some things are.

SPEAKER_00: 13:41

It was so interesting when we were in Notre Dame. Well, a few observations I want to make and just get to your thoughts. So we have four kids. Our youngest, I think, was having the biggest struggle with the time change and was just kind of not having a great day. So we're literally chasing her around that transom area that you're talking about. And when you were sharing that earlier, I was like, wow, Brian and I have had a very different experience. We're chasing her around the choir. Yeah, around that middle area, he's sitting there reflecting. Maybe it wasn't exactly in the transome. Oh, and we're like, oh my gosh, this is so embarrassing. How do we get her to settle down and behave? So we basically got in and we essentially did a lap, you know, around the outside as you do. And there's a couple areas where you can sit and have a prayerful reflection as the hundreds and hundreds of tourists are just going by you. And so our family did that, and it was this crazy moment for me thinking about the beheadings I think that happened there during the French Revolution, Napoleon, uh Joan of like all of these historic moments, and then here's little old me sitting there while I'm trying to get my my kids to behave, trying to have this spiritual moment, you know, the person who's literally leaning on the no picture sign is taking a picture, like all these things happen at once, and it just made me kind of reflect on how places are mean so many different things to so many different people. And so, in some ways, you you have to uh I think capture and sort of harness and say, like, this is what this place means to me, and and it means something totally different to you.

SPEAKER_01: 15:26

And that's the importance of this conversation, in my opinion, is to ask people to reflect on the places that have a significant and important shaping influence in their life, and to own that place or to name that place as significant for what it provided and to remember the importance not only of being there, but maybe the importance of returning there. Part of what I practice is the sense of pilgrimage to the places that I think are the most important to my life, and these are very, very specific places in the world, and I tend to get to them every year, if not every two years. And for me, the anticipation of going somewhere where you know that you're going to have this moment of reflection and connection and transcendence. I think the pilgrimage itself teaches you something about who you are. Because Nathan, you also know a place that we've both been to, you also know that one of my top two favorite places in the world is in Kapalua on the island of Maui in Hawaii. The anticipation of being there every year, like I get so excited for the day that we drive up there and just sit there when I, you know, or when I run to that area, there's just there are pl so many places within that one place that I tend to go, that Linda tends to go, that we bring our family to, that have such a significant and profound impact on my life because of the reflective nature that I have when I'm there. It's a specific place with a very specific topography, a very specific climate, and all that seems to just awaken and bring life to me. And I just name it as this is one of my places.

SPEAKER_00: 17:22

Yeah, I'm not ashamed to say it. It's um so in closing, I've a few thoughts. So we need a new pan at our house.

SPEAKER_01: 17:31

And you just call a fancy new coffee maker.

SPEAKER_00: 17:34

I know, and I'm like, we need a new pan, and Malia's like, all right. And I was like, We heard a hex clad, Brian Linda have this hex clad, Gordon Ramsey, and she just starts laughing. I was like, what? Malia? Yeah. She's like, Of course Brian Linda have the pan that you want. And I was like, She's right. Yeah. And because, you know, the coffee maker, and as I was preparing for this, and even as you were talking there, I was just kind of thinking about how like we share a lot of places. We share a lot of things, not in the same way. Like Kapalua is one of those also one of those places. Now Paris is, and it's kind of fun. And I'm just a quick reflection I'd ask you to ref to answer is you know, as a team, Leadership Vision now has some places, some some things, uh, frying pans and a coffee maker, that are uh significant and maybe kind of silly and fun to share. Like our running shoes around the room. Our running shoes, I mean, oh, I didn't even think about that or talk about that side of it. But I guess my my point is as a team, we have these shared things, these places, these peoples, what people, whatever. I'm wondering how important is that for a team? And would you encourage teams to identify those shaping things that not only have significance for them as individuals, but as a team they can point to and say, this place, this retreat, this thing, and what benefit does that have? And then we'll kind of close it out from there.

SPEAKER_01: 18:55

Well, sharing those places with you are certainly not accidental because the two most important places in my life are Kapalua, the second one is Portugal, and you've been to both. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. The foundational place is Paris, and you've been there. Now we've been there. And the most euphoric and celebrated place is Boston. Yeah, you've been there. Yeah. So of all the places that I consider the most important in my life, Nathan, you've been there. And the reason why that's important in this conversation is this when I find places that have that level of significance to me, I want to share them with those that I care about. I want to bring my friends there. I I want to bring people there. I want to bring our daughter to all these places so that she has a sense of just the experience. I'm not expecting it to mean the same thing, but I want to share these meaningful places with others so they can have that experience or so that we can have that experience together. And that's why I think, you know, for teams, whether it's a place or a certain kind of practice, there's something that happens when you gather together in a place that doesn't happen when you gather together in a place that's that's normal. When the place is specific, something specific and special happens. And so I I really encourage leaders to think about where are the places that we go? What do we do when our team is together in those places? Because it's more likely that you're going to create not only significant memories, but significant relational connections between your team members when you disrupt the normality of place and insert something that's unique and grand. I love it.

SPEAKER_00: 20:33

Brian, thank you for having us conversation and revisiting this idea of Notre Dame and place and all the things that are important to us. And thank you for listening to the Leadership Vision Podcast, our show helping you build positive team culture. If you found value from this episode or any of our episodes, we would appreciate it if you could follow us. Podcast, social, join our email, newsletter, all the stuff. If you'd like to get more information about building a positive team culture, you can visit us on the web at Leadership Vision Consulting.com or click the link in the show notes. My name is Nathan Freeberg. And I'm still Brian Schuberg. And on behalf of our entire team, thanks for listening.

SPEAKER_01: 21:14

I think that there's one place in our lives that you've not been to is Sugar Lake. Ah, yes. Like that's the only place. And the river for you, like I'm I I've not been in that place that you go Sun Sun River, I know.

SPEAKER_00: 21:29

Yeah. What is funny, my experience in Paris is very different than your experience in Paris, just because of the kids and just everything. And what I think is is cool is just that it's like when you meet someone like from your hometown or your high school or who is a shared sports fan. It's like you immediately have a shorthand that until a month ago, like we didn't have in that area.

SPEAKER_01: 21:50

I know, man. The thing in 2019, holy crap, like that was I couldn't believe that podcast. What was I talking about? Like I'm thinking, wow.

SPEAKER_00: 22:00

Well, and that's yeah, I mean, we could we could record another one and just unpack all of that. Like, I still believe in the symbol like that.

SPEAKER_01: 22:07

Like just the whole connection surrounded by purpose, and I mean just totally and you know, the the points of connection, the points of pressure. I mean, all that stuff is really, really it's still who I am.