What Stands Out: Reflection as a Leadership Practice

In this episode of The Leadership Vision Podcast, Nathan Freeburg is joined by Dr. Linda and Brian Schubring to explore the reflection and application practices behind their book, Unfolded: Lessons in Transformation from an Origami Crane. Together, they unpack the questions they use with leaders and teams to create clarity, safety, and momentum—starting with one simple prompt: What stands out?

This conversation invites listeners to slow down, listen differently, and reflect on the people, places, and voices shaping their leadership and life.

What You’ll Learn

• Why reflection is a leadership skill—not a luxury
• How simple questions create psychological safety
• The role of voice in shaping team dynamics
• Why growth is more about the map than the playground

🎉 Unfolded is a National Bestseller!
#1 in Business & #5 Overall on USA Today
#17 on Publisher’s Weekly Nonfiction
📘 Grab your copy + get the FREE Reflection Guide!

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Purpose
• 1:42 Welcome to the Leadership Vision Podcast
• 2:06 Reflective Practices and Their Importance
• 3:05 New Year Reflections and Celebrations
• 3:48 Top Five Lists and Reflections
• 5:12 Reflection and Application
• 11:00 Shaping People and Places
• 18:47 Understanding Character Voices
• 24:05 The Concept of Playgrounds
• 28:45 The Importance of the Map
• 32:31 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:53

When I reread this chapter yesterday, I thought to myself, like it was Linda's idea to reinforce part of our professional practices in this application and reflection section, that people get some sense of what happens if you are with us. Like, how would we talk something down with you? And that's why these first couple of pages really sets this interpretive framework of now. This is kind of what we do. So it's almost like you're joining in a conversation with us. Like after you've watched this play, you know, now we're going to talk it down. And there are some very standardized processes that Linda and I use to engage, dare I say, all of our clients in the process of reflection, and they're here on the first three pages.

SPEAKER_01: 1:42

You are listening to the Leadership Vision Podcast, our show helping you build positive team culture. Our consulting firm has spent the past 25 years doing this work, investing in leaders so that they are mentally engaged and emotionally healthy. To learn more about what we do, you can click the link in the show notes or visit us on the web at Leadership Vision Consulting.com. Hello everyone, my name is Nathan Freeberg. Welcome back to the podcast. Today we are returning to the chapter on home from Unfolded Lessons in Transformation from an origami crane, not to be reread necessarily, but as a conversation to be lived. Dr. Linda and Brian Schuberg invite us into the reflective practices at the heart of their work. The questions they ask, the pauses they create, and the ways that they help people make meaning of their stories. Now, this isn't about conclusions or finding answers. It's about noticing what stands out, about naming the voices that shape us and paying attention to the people, places, and experiences that continue to form who we are becoming. Now, as you listen, don't rush to interpret. Just notice what stands out for you. Join the conversation. You can click the link in the show notes or go to the accompanying blog post or social media. Tell us what you think. All right, here it is. Enjoy. Brian and Linda, welcome back to the Leadership Vision Podcast. Happy New Year. Happy New Year! Do you have goals? Do you set goals or set some sort of intentions for the year? I nap until I have to go back to work. Nap until you have to go back to work? Okay. What about you, Linda?

SPEAKER_02: 3:22

I feel like I'm able to turn a chapter. I kind of thank the year before and I look forward to what is next. Our daughter called and said, She's like, What are you doing for New Year's? I was like, Ready? Five, four, three, two, one, good night.

SPEAKER_01: 3:37

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 3:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 3:39

But you guys didn't know.

SPEAKER_00: 3:40

However, however, we did go out for a celebration dinner because we wanted to celebrate 2025. There was so much to celebrate. Linda did a surprise and she said, Let's do top five lists. And I'm always up for a competition. And one that comes from Linda is even more inviting. So part of what we did was Linda, I think, made up all these like top five this from last year. And so it was fun to reflect on the moments to prepare us for you know turning the corner into the new year.

SPEAKER_02: 4:09

And it could be top five adventures, top five restaurants, which the dinner with you and your wife in Boston made the list. Yeah, you made the list twice. Yeah, made the list.

SPEAKER_00: 4:19

We had the top five dinners, top five dinners of 2020.

SPEAKER_01: 4:23

The pre-race or the post-race dinner? Ramsey. I don't really remember much of the post-race dinner to be honest. No, I was certain. No. You were, yes, but it was the starving and then couldn't eat anymore.

SPEAKER_02: 4:35

So the top, the top five, I eventually wove around and said, well, because our book was in the top five of USA Today. So but it was just, it was funny where we lined up and it was funny where we had completely different perspectives, and it was even top five hard moments.

SPEAKER_01: 4:58

What was that about?

unknown: 5:00

What?

SPEAKER_01: 5:01

Well, have you found that with the book of people reading it and some person saying, Well, I thought this, and someone saying, What? I thought the opposite. Like, have you experienced that with clients?

SPEAKER_00: 5:12

Yeah, what we're gonna talk about today is reflection and application. One of the surprises of 2025 was to hear people's reflection and application because you have no idea what someone's gonna think of or say or how they're gonna reflect. And so that's been one of the pleasant surprises.

SPEAKER_01: 5:29

Well, let's get to that because as you said, we're gonna be talking about the reflection and application. It's not really a chapter, it's the at the end of the book. And what I like how you phrased it is it's handles and prompts for reflection. So it's, I don't know, tools that you can, you know, let's say you're reading through it with Oprah's book club group or whatever it is, like you can have some great handles that people can grab onto to say, well, this made me think about that. That made me think about that. And what I'd like to do here in the next however many minutes we're recording is almost pretend like we're getting dropped into an actual client session, like how you might possibly facilitate some discussion around the big themes of the book, some of the big ideas and things like that. So what stands out to you though, first, as before we jump into this?

SPEAKER_02: 6:22

That's the first question, Nathan. What stands to you? The first question is what stands out because the little context was I was convinced that we couldn't just write the allegory. We couldn't just write the story that you could see yourself in. That I wanted to give some handles, I wanted to share some of the expertise and the things that we've learned and the conversations that we've had over the years, and to not just, you know, let people guess and like, oh, was I, was I rabbit? Was I was I the turtle? So the context was how do we, without telling people what to do, how do we provide some handles at the end of the story for the people that wanted to take a further step? That some of the questions that we would ask would be very reflective of what we do intentionally with leaders, and that is cause them to reflect so that they can take more purposeful action forward.

SPEAKER_00: 7:22

And like you asked, Nathan, we really did want the reader to somehow, through words on a page, experience what it might be like to sit across from us and talk through what they read. Because in our work, one of the things that we've prided ourselves in is considering ourselves as story listeners. Because we believe that everyone's living a story, there are stories being told, we're telling stories to ourselves, and so much of our work with clients is helping people understand the stories they're living together. And in the midst of those stories, life experiences and dreams, there is one question that we always start with to kind of interrupt someone's thinking and storytelling to get them into a moment of reflection.

SPEAKER_02: 8:10

Well, it's not even always start with, it's continually ask.

SPEAKER_00: 8:14

But we do. Yeah. So continue to ask this question.

SPEAKER_02: 8:17

So if the the session is getting intense or we're doing a basic intro, we will then ask the question, what stands out? What stands out? And when they don't know us really well, they're trying to give us the right answer. They're trying to tell us the answer that we want to hear. Instead, what stands out is what are you paying attention to? Who are the people around you? What is your heart saying? What's your head saying? How is your body responding? When you start to ask what stands out, you are getting clues as to what the person answering the question really cares about.

SPEAKER_00: 8:52

What stands out is a psychological question that's putting the person in an observational posture. What stands out? Just what are you noticing? It could be something intellectual, it could be something emotional, it could be something spiritual or physical. Doesn't matter. We're just asking people to pause, take an observational approach, what stands out, and we're not asking for any kind of interpretation or description or judgment. Just name what stands out. It can be tactical, it can be colorful. We don't care. Just what stands out.

SPEAKER_02: 9:23

And some people are very simple.

SPEAKER_00: 9:25

Blue.

SPEAKER_02: 9:26

Exactly. It's one-word answers, or but sometimes people haven't been asked that question before. And we really want to honor the adult learner by asking them to pay attention to what's inside them.

SPEAKER_01: 9:41

What do you do with that then? As the facilitator, so someone says blue. Someone says, I think of my estranged father. Like what do you do with the myriad of possible ways that people answer that?

SPEAKER_00: 9:54

Reinforce the validity that their observation is true. Okay. No judgment, no criticism. Yep, that's true. That allows someone to feel that they've been heard. And because we start with these prompts and we use them all the time, it reinforces that this is a safe place to say whatever you're observing, thinking, or feeling.

SPEAKER_02: 10:17

If you were sitting across from us, you would see us taking notes furiously. And we usually have a list of all the names of the people. I make them into a seating chart, and I will just be jotting some of their answers. Sometimes it's to follow back up with that person or to show them that I was listening or with them in that moment. And then we'll use some of that information, not necessarily estranged father, but we'll use some of the other, maybe blue, to weave back in later by way of saying, I heard you and your perspective is important.

SPEAKER_01: 10:55

To be clear, I don't have an Estranged Father. The next section, shaping people and places. Talk to me a little bit about that because this is something we've podcasted about, not for a while, but in the past, describing a person or a place that has shaped who you are. I love this, and I've done it so many different versions of this over the years with people. Yes. So talk about that one a little bit.

SPEAKER_02: 11:19

Well, this one comes by way of our practice that this is a common question that we'll ask, describe a person or place that has shaped who you are. The reason why it's fun for me, especially in the context of our book and our story, is that if we were to ask the characters of Unfolded, what was a shaping person or place? I wonder if one of the characters would have said the monkey bars. I wonder if one of the characters would have said, Well, every time Golden is around, then I feel calm because a golden retriever puppy is going to be encouraging and present. So this one, I just let my imagination go a little bit. Then how did we want to dial it in so that we would invite people to think about the shaping people and places in their life?

SPEAKER_00: 12:11

And because this whole book is centered on origami and how the characters are made of map paper, the people and places in our lives are shaping and folding, increasing and bending us in ways known and in ways unknown. To bring up the question who's a person that has shaped you, a place that has folded you or molded you, it asks us to reflect on how it is we've arrived at the shape we are today. And when we ask people to reflect, we're actually asking them to maybe do some small unfolding themselves. Because sometimes, like you said, Nathan, in the moments of reflection, we realize to ourselves, oh, I didn't understand how important that individual was to our life because their fold may be folded away. And I believe that there are places and people in our lives that we may have forgotten about that have done this thing in organi where a fold is set and then unfolded because that fold isn't there to keep its shape, it's there to prepare the way for a new shape. And it isn't until you unfold something that you realize, oh, that was a supporting fold, not a fold meant to be a provider of shape. A place and people that have influenced our lives is so important in our reflection and so important to this story because every touch leaves a trace.

SPEAKER_02: 13:42

Ooh, that's good.

SPEAKER_00: 13:43

That is good.

SPEAKER_02: 13:44

That is good. And I and I would say that there's sometimes where people answer the question and they're listing the fold that was really intense. And in that moment, some people don't even remember like it was my third grade teacher, but they cannot, for the life of them, remember their name. Correct. They just remembered how they felt with that person, they remembered what they learned, they remembered that just even being in that classroom, it provided something in particular. And some people, it's like this person has been with me since I was a little kid.

SPEAKER_01: 14:19

What do you do with that information then? If I were to tell you, you know, these are the handful of things that I feel like, you know, are what stands out, these are the things that really stand out when I think about shaping people in places. Do you use that information specifically? If I tell you, you know, small towns grew up very involved in my church, played music, like da da da da that.

SPEAKER_02: 14:41

How do you here's an example? We were just with a client at the end of the year, and we asked the same question. And a lot of times people are like, well, what are you gonna do with this information? And what we do with the information isn't on us, it is that we invited people to say things out loud into the universe so that there could be connections made, relationships formed. So after the session with us, we met with a couple of the leaders a few days later, and they said, you know, in the break room now, people are talking, and now we have some inside jokes, and now we can ask about this. Turns out I grew up on a farm as well, and I knew what it was like to have this and not have that, and what it was like to live in some obscure parts of the country.

SPEAKER_00: 15:31

Because the practice allows people to say things and to hear their own voice saying something important, it invites them to say it again because they may have realized that nothing happened, or maybe some of the fears of not sharing didn't play out, and it's okay then to talk about it.

unknown: 15:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 15:51

Or they'll say things like, I've I haven't said this in a long time, or I haven't thought about that period in my in a long time. I haven't wow, wait, I'm just moving forward, or I'm just worried about raising my kids. I haven't thought about what was happening to me as a sixth grader. And that gift of allowing people to pause and look backwards gives them greater insight and perhaps even motivation and understanding and self-compassion as they move forward with their everyday life.

SPEAKER_00: 16:21

Now imagine this happening in a group setting where you have a team of eight to twelve people, everyone sharing about you know what stands out from an experience or sharing what the people and places that have shaped their lives. Every time someone shares something, their voice is being heard. And when you read our book, you're hearing the voices of each of the characters. Every one of the characters has a unique and distinct voice that's being heard over and over and over again. And sometimes I believe that asking the questions that we ask that are open-ended and inviting and curious, it gives characters, if you will, the chance to express themselves in their own voice because sometimes team members are unfamiliar with each other's voices. And we believe that part of our job, part of our practice, is to help people feel safe enough to express themselves on topics that are pretty generic, but it gives team members a new familiarization of what that person's voice sounds like when they're not under pressure or stress or some kind of deadline.

SPEAKER_01: 17:23

What it sounds like you guys are doing in a business team setting is what often happens if you have a group of people over to your house for like a dinner party where there's just kind of this natural flow of conversation. You hear somebody like, oh, wait, you're a Bears fan, I'm a Bears fan. Oh, you like this thing, I like this thing. But that doesn't happen in the workplace. You don't get to hear people, their connection, you're from a small town, I'm from a small town. You went to this school on a blah, blah, blah. What I've seen happen in person, and what it sounds like you're describing now, is that what your work is doing is removing those barriers to allow people to be a little bit more authentically who they are, to make connections, to build safety, to then ultimately do better work because you know these people and you trust these people.

SPEAKER_00: 18:11

Yep. When we're working with a client, it's often topical, it's very directed, and we are not losing our focus on why we're there. And that is to help these individuals express themselves in authentic ways without there being judgment. The importance of that happening over and over again reinforces not only why we're here, but why we have certain relational connections with some people, why other people we may feel some kind of emotional dissonance with, and why we look to other people for leadership. And part of our practice is creating places where people can authentically express who they are.

SPEAKER_01: 18:47

Well, speaking of people, I want to talk about the characters. That's another specific section. You don't necessarily say, all right, raise your hand if you identify with YC. All right, who of you are the foxes? But there's a very obvious kindergarten-esque low-hanging fruit of what character do you identify with? Like, how do you use that and not feel like kindergarten? What does that practice look like?

SPEAKER_02: 19:14

Well, part of the practice is to realize that we are complicated layered human beings.

SPEAKER_03: 19:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 19:20

When we ask the question, and this is usually in a more one-to-one kind of question, if we're asking about the characters, it's like, well, which one is your internal voice? Which ones really drive you? Which ones do you give energy toward? Which ones are you looking for? In certain contexts, people like to be pushed or they like to be criticized because they wanna that just motivates them to do something even better. And then there are times where people are hungry for the voice of wisdom, or they are hungry for a companion that has been down there before that could be present with them in this in this moment. And so the characters, it's not like raise your hand, but it's more when have you been these for me?

SPEAKER_00: 20:11

The characters can be summarized around this one idea, and that is accountability. I see the characters, and this vision was in my mind before the book was written how can we create a story where there are some real easy handles on identifying the voices we're hearing around us and hearing within us. Because I believe that there is an accountability to understand what people around us sound like. Like let's just be accountable to that and be authentic. And this is what that person sounds like to me, and to be accountable to how each one of us have. All of the character voices inside us speaking to ourselves. And third, how is it that we can be accountable to how our voice might sound to other people?

SPEAKER_03: 21:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 21:06

Yeah. I was looking at your face. Well, it's just so true because I talk to myself like a rabbit and a fox. And I talk to other people like an owl, I think, sometimes. A lot of people are like I just got a text from a friend who's like, You and Malia are like some of the most positive, like cheerful, blah, blah, blah people. And I was like, Yeah. And then I'm like, Sometimes I think I am just full of shame and guilt and criticism and judgment, like the fox and the rabbit. And so it's like I think it's helpful hearing and seeing all these different voices, and how you're like not one. You're not even two. You're like a whole forest or whole playground, if you will, of these voices. And so what is the goal then? Is it to be less, to be more, to just be, and be like, hey, I'm being a little too foxy right now.

SPEAKER_03: 21:58

It's too well.

SPEAKER_00: 21:59

What's the point? For me, the point is to listen. My dream is to be able to give the reader a tool to help them understand what they're hearing. Because sometimes we listen and we're having some type of emotional reaction to someone. And I want the reader, my desire is for the reader to be able to quickly say, to name, oh, it's a fox voice. Just by naming, it almost neutralizes something. There are places I go because when I go to those places, I'm being led by eagles. I just want to feel that. And there are people in my life where I know they're looking to me to be the voice of eagle. No judgment, no criticism, but a name gives people the opportunity to simply identify and recognize what they need. There are times where I just this happened to me recently. I asked somebody for help because I wanted a voice of criticism and judgment to help guide me. And this person's observations were delivered in a very objective and truthful way, but I needed to have some criticism of that's working and that's not working, or you know, you need to stop that because I needed to listen differently. So, how do we ask for certain voices? How do we speak with a certain voice? And the characters have simple names, simple descriptions to help us be able to name how it is we're listening.

SPEAKER_02: 23:39

And all voices have the shaping.

SPEAKER_01: 23:41

To name the voices around us helps give insight to our own self-talk, our team dynamics, or family drama. That's right. Page 75. That's right. A whole separate podcast. Yep. You know, the playground, much like how New York City becomes a character in many movies set in New York City, the playground is yet another character that is not listed under characters. So you talk about the playground representing the places and experience that have shaped who we are as individuals. How does that differ than the other question about people and places? Because I understand that playground is all about experimentation, it's about trying things, it's about falling and getting back up, all of that. So how does this fit into this ability to apply this?

SPEAKER_00: 24:27

Playground for me is the actual physical places, like the physical places in our lives where we are actually given the opportunity for practice. These are places that have resources, these are places that have opportunities, they have built-in challenges and obstacles. There may be playgrounds that provide us with nourishment or refreshment or rest and recovery. But in these places, the question for me is in our playgrounds, are we actually utilizing and engaging the resources around us? Because I believe that the playgrounds are designed with purpose, and the purpose is to help us fulfill our greatest potential and possibility.

SPEAKER_02: 25:07

Which is to help us grow so that we can actually go for our dreams. And I think it's naming the places where you grow, not necessarily the places where you stay. And that's why there's seasons past, you go from one playground to the next to the more challenging part of this developmental playground. And as you're talking about places of growth, there's a reason why we don't stay seniors in high school. And I think about those people, we've all known them, they're the hangers around, the ones that they graduate from high school, but they still try to hang out and they find this sense of belonging. And in our experience working with leaders, I think so many people just get stuck and they wax nostalgic about what that time on the playground was or what that proverbial senior in high school year meant to them, instead of being pushed to find a new place to grow, a new place to experiment, a new place to realize what you like and what you don't like. And as we encourage people to think about what playground they are in right now, they might be in a really advanced part of a playground in their work life, but they might be in a very slow or sand toys stage in their exercise or in their diet or in their home life.

SPEAKER_00: 26:35

And part of our playground in the book is designed with three developmental areas. One of the invitations in the book is to have the reader think about their various playgrounds and to honestly reflect on what stage of the playground they are. There's no judgment in being at the most developmental stage. Sometimes our dreams are preparing us for movement, and there's something to learn at each stage. In many conversations that I have with some of our clients, I'm realizing that part of the challenge is their unwillingness to accept their actual stage of development within a company, or they're wrestling with this dream to leave or dream to progress, but they fear it. They fear going to the bigger part of the playground. Unlike school, you move from one grade to the other. Sometimes in our work, there isn't that natural seasonal progression.

SPEAKER_01: 27:32

Yeah. I have a theory I want to run by you.

SPEAKER_00: 27:35

Good.

SPEAKER_01: 27:35

I have a theory that you never leave the playground. There is there's no exit to the playground. You're just sort of, like you said, you like you may be in the sandbox, maybe you're in the you know, ages eight to twelve. There's this trampoline park that I take the kids to sometimes that has like this ninja course that you find yourself on. Not able to get past like the second or third one. Like so, my point is like you never leave the playground, you just kind of graduate. And it's interesting what you said, Linda. I hadn't thought about that. Like maybe your different parts of your life are in different parts of the playground at different times. But is that true? Like, do you ever leave the playground? Are you just constantly or just moving through gates to the next level, to the next level? And you know, as we had a meeting before this when we talked, we were talking to a good friend who is said what he's working on for the next year. I was like, what? Like you you're talking about identity and discovering this stuff? You're someone that I look to as like being on the Mount Olympus of having all that stuff figured out, and you're still so is that a crazy theory? We never leave the playground, we're always there.

SPEAKER_00: 28:42

Nathan, this is what I think. Tell me it's not about the playground, it's about the map.

SPEAKER_01: 28:48

Okay, well, that's the next section.

SPEAKER_00: 28:51

Because I believe that sometimes we can focus so much on the attraction and distractions of our where that we forget that it's really about the who, and that is about our map. What are we learning about ourselves as that ninja course is challenging you, Nathan, to unfold ways of your approach? You're actually learning more about yourself than you are actually learning about the course.

SPEAKER_02: 29:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 29:19

The end, boom!

SPEAKER_02: 29:20

Yes, my job.

SPEAKER_00: 29:22

Well, it's it's interesting. How many people do I talk to in any given week that are spending so much time naming the noise and the distractions of what's around them at the expense of not realizing actually how much they're growing, how much they're learning about themselves, how much they're really honing in their identity, how these challenges are sharpening their leadership skills. They're missing that because so much of what they're focused on is this distraction, this change, or this news cycle, or this uncertainty, but they're actually evolving and adapting. Their map is becoming more and more clear to them. They just haven't paused long enough to realize that is who I am. They have this realization that this is me in ways that they haven't before. It's about the map more than the place.

SPEAKER_02: 30:23

The playground is the gateway to talk about the map. Because the playgrounds give us clues, they give us insight. Yes, it's a place to train, it's a place to practice. Yep, we're in different places, we realize we like things, and at the end of the day, you start to realize wow, in this playground, I love water. I keep going to the water, I keep revisiting the components of where there's a river or where there's a lake. And when you interact and when you are actually in action and you are in movement and you are discovering and you're adventuring, there is a sense of pressing pause and then figuring out what you love about it because, once again, like Brian was saying, it gives you clues about what your map actually looks like, about where you come from and how you show up in the world.

SPEAKER_00: 31:19

Playgrounds are the places where the dreams are agitated loose. Playgrounds are the place where the unfolding happens, and the playgrounds are the place from which we leave in that moment of transformation when we actually fly, and the dream is giving our life the lift that we're always looking for. The map is part of our learning, learning about ourselves, learning about our abilities. Our unfolding is as much about the people helping us unfold as it is about us reshaping us to pursue our dreams. When others begin to see portions of our map that are exposed to the light, they may become more curious about the portions of their folded-away map that need to come to the light. It's all about the map and the experiences that we have that help us learn and believe more in who we are, our most basic and fundamental goodness that is propelled by our potential that will help us achieve the dreams that are there for us to achieve.

SPEAKER_01: 32:31

Thank you for listening to the Leadership Vision Podcast, our show helping you build positive team culture. For more resources to learn more about what we do and how you can better understand your map, you can visit us on the web at Leadership Vision Consulting.com. Please follow us on all the socials. Please subscribe to our YouTube channel, our free email newsletter and podcast at Leadership Vision Consulting.com slash subscribe. There is a link in the show notes for that. My name is Nathan Freebring.

SPEAKER_02: 33:02

I'm Linda Schubring.

SPEAKER_00: 33:03

And I'm Brian Schubring.

SPEAKER_01: 33:04

On behalf of our entire team, thanks for listening.