Leading Through Challenge, Change, Uncertainty

Leaders today are navigating a world shaped by challenge, change, and uncertainty — often all at once.

But here’s the problem: most of us treat these three experiences as if they’re the same thing.

They’re not.

In this episode of The Leadership Vision Podcast, Nathan, Brian, and Linda explore why distinguishing between challenge, change, and uncertainty is essential for leading well — especially in seasons of disruption, stress, and ambiguity.

Drawing from neuroscience, behavioral research, and 25 years of consulting experience, they offer practical questions and frameworks leaders can use immediately with their teams.

In This Episode

You’ll learn:

• The critical difference between challenge, change, and uncertainty
• Why leaders often respond to all three the same way — and why that doesn’t work
• How challenge reinforces confidence and competence
• Why change requires intentional pivots and seasonal awareness
• What uncertainty does to the human brain — and how to respond wisely
• Four powerful questions to help teams move forward in the fog

Key Distinctions

Challenge
A stretch — but within your existing capacity.
You already have what you need. It requires grit and focus.

Change
An interruption or redirection.
It requires letting go, adapting, and growing in new ways.

Uncertainty
A state of not knowing.
Limited clarity. Limited predictability. Emotional fog.

Each requires a different leadership response.

Practical Questions for Leaders

When facing uncertainty, ask your team:

1. What do you need to understand?
2. What do you need to commit?
3. What do you need to adjust?
4. How will you take action?

When facing change, consider:

• What season are we in — spring, summer, fall, or winter?
• Where does each team member naturally come to life during change?
• What might need to be released before we move forward?

When facing challenge, ask:

• Have we done something like this before?
• What strengths have helped us succeed?
• What’s at the “end of the trail” that motivates us?

A Reflection for This Week

Before you respond to what feels difficult, ask:

Is this a challenge to grow through?
 A change to adapt to?
 Or an uncertainty to navigate?

The answer may determine how you lead.

About Leadership Vision

For 25 years, Leadership Vision has helped leaders and teams build positive team culture by developing mental engagement and emotional health.

Learn more at:
 👉 https://www.leadershipvisionconsulting.com

Subscribe to our free email newsletter:
 👉

Transcript

S09EP10 - Challenge, Change, and Uncertainty

SPEAKER_01 0:00

The assumption that many people make is that the way to face and navigate uncertainty is to continue as we are. And what we're saying is, let's just press pause and ask: are we ready? Is it the right season? Do we have the right equipment and tools and relationships and emotional well-being necessary for the uncertainty that we're facing?

SPEAKER_00 0:23

And some of the teams that we're working with right now and have been working with for the past couple years, they had the right leadership with the right foresight that there was something happening that was going to challenge their capacity to navigate uncertainty. And what they did in response, what these teams that I'm thinking about in particular, what they did in response was they prepared for that uncertainty by creating a variety of solutions that could be enacted.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

Our consulting firm has been doing this work for the past 25 years so that leaders are mentally engaged and emotionally healthy. To learn more about what we do, you can click the link in the show notes or visit us on the web at Leadership Vision Consulting.com. Hello everyone, my name is Nathan Freeberg, and today on the podcast, we are talking about challenge, change, and uncertainty. And you may already know this, but leaders today, yes, that means you, you're navigating a world shaped by challenge, change, and uncertainty, often all at the same time. Now, these forces test resilience, disrupt what's familiar, and create anxiety when clarity is hard to find. So in today's conversation, Brian, Linda, and I are exploring how these three experiences affect people differently, why leaders often respond to them in the same way, why that doesn't work, and what it looks like to lead through them with confidence, clarity, and courage. Brian and Linda will share insights from neuroscience, behavioral research, and their own work with teams, along with practical ways leaders can study their purpose and turn turbulence into growth. This is the Leadership Vision Podcast. Enjoy. Brian and Linda, welcome back to the Leadership Vision Podcast. Would you say you're dealing more with challenge, change, or uncertainty right at this very moment?

SPEAKER_00 2:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 2:26

Yes. All of the above. So when you think about the leaders that you're working with today or yesterday or tomorrow, what are you seeing when it comes to this challenge, change, uncertainty? Like, why are we talking about this today?

SPEAKER_00 2:40

The importance of the topics of challenge, change, and uncertainty, especially right now, is that a lot of leaders find themselves in leadership roles where they have a pretty great capacity to navigate change. They have a pretty, pretty good dexterity with challenge. They're kind of hungry for it. They like it. And they've been able in the past to be able to manage some levels of uncertainty with grace and determination and grit. And I think what we're seeing now is this bubbling up of challenge, change, and uncertainty where leaders are like, now this is a little too much. This was more than I bargained for. This was more than I was prepared for, more than I'm able to navigate right now. And I think leaders are asking for a reframe. Some of them are looking for easy answers. And I don't think there are any easy and fast answers. I think we wanted to have this conversation about challenge and change and uncertainty on the podcast to maybe give some hope or to give some other handles or perspectives to look at these topics.

SPEAKER_02 3:56

So when I think about challenge, change, and uncertainty, I think back to 2020, 21, 22, perhaps the pinnacle of those three things in all of human history. But what you're saying is that's there's still issues. So perhaps like what what feels different about it now, or what are you hearing from clients about these things, right? Like currently in 2026 here.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Well, people are still concerned about uncertainties on multiple levels. And what COVID did was introduce us to an uncertainty that we all had to go through together as a global community. As a result of that, people are more aware of uncertainty when they're perceiving us. I think that we have a heightened sensitivity to what uncertainty means. So we're more prone to be aware of it and maybe afraid of it. However, what we want to introduce or to remind people of is that many people know how to face uncertainty if they begin to remember and to reflect on how they navigate challenges in their life and how they face changes. Because we believe that there are some really unique core components in how we are dealing with challenges and change in our life that will be the building blocks to how we can deal with uncertainty.

SPEAKER_02 5:11

What I'd like to do for basically the rest of the podcast is kind of go through each of those each of those three words, define it, talk a little bit about it. What do you want to say, though, sort of big picture about those three things, or why do you make such a distinction between the three?

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Because they're very different, Nathan.

SPEAKER_02 5:29

Well, they all get lumped into this, like, ah, things are tough bucket.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

They they do. And I just want to start by giving just really brief definition of what each of these three elements are. What is challenge? What is change, and what is uncertainty? Challenge is a situation or an obstacle that stresses that stretches our present capacities, potential, and abilities. Like we already have the resources to do this. So a challenge may be something that feels difficult, but we have everything that we need already, and it's nothing that's going to keep us from going forward.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

And that challenge feels like a test. It feels like an opportunity to sharpen your capacities or to realize what you're made of.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

Like just kind of got to roll up your sleeves and do it. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

Now, change, on the other hand, that is an interruption or a disruption, a change of direction. It could be intentional, like we decide to make a change, which results in changing our behaviors and our attitudes, or it could be change could be unexpected. It may surprise us, and still it causes us to take a different or a new direction. It's as if you're coming to an intersection and there is no forward. There's only variations of turning to the right and variations of turning to the left. That's what a change is. And and key to change is this new development of skills and capacities, presses us outside of our comfort zone, changes it, is something that is unique in how it asks us to grow and develop in new ways.

Uncertainty

SPEAKER_00 7:08

And we know that change is a circumstance and change is a choice. And in the process of change, different than challenge, in the process of change, usually there is some sort of letting go of either habits or practices or setting certain things down and adapting or grabbing new things or changing your momentum or your direction. Forward, I was gonna say forward, but not always forward. But there is a letting go and there is an adapting when it comes to change.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

Now, uncertainty is something very, very different. Uncertainty is being in a state of not knowing what's next, where you lack the clarity, you lack predictability, you lack a knowing of what could possibly be out there. You may have incomplete information, but you know there's maybe something beyond this uncertainty. If you can imagine standing at the base of a mountain and most of the mountain is covered in clouds, you just cannot see, but you know that there is a way to continue forward. And that's kind of the idea here behind uncertainty. Because you're unaware, you're not sure if you're ready. You're not sure if you have the skills or capacities or experience. You don't even know if there's anybody to help you get through it. And that level of uncertainty causes a great degree of pause in people because then they begin to question and self-doubt, can I even make it?

SPEAKER_00 8:35

One of the things that we do with leaders is try to really listen to what the song is beneath the words. And when we are listening to someone describe uncertainty, it's often that they've lost their sense of anchor. Like they have, they're not, they're holding an anchor, it's not their life or their decisions or their circumstance is not anchored. And we find in that place of uncertainty that people are just trying to wipe their eyes and get a better sense of clarity. But oftentimes with uncertainty, it's just like, wait a minute, the bedrock principles that I was relying upon are those shifted. What happened?

SPEAKER_02 9:16

So can you have all three of these at one time? Or do they think of the car was all fogged up on the way to school today? And so I kind of you know scrubbed you know just enough to see I know the way to school practically with my eyes closed, I can get there. But if I was driving somewhere I didn't know where I was going, I would try to remove all of that fog before I left because of all that ambiguity. So do these things get layered on top of one another? I guess what I'm asking is it important to identify, oh, this is a change moment, this is an uncertainty moment, this is a you know a big challenge, because then that will determine how we set out on this quote unquote journey.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

I think there's a degree to yes uh to your answer. Yes to identify and the reason why is I think that when people are facing uncertainty, they tend to get wrapped up in the emotion that is around the unknown, and they seem to forget that they may have faced challenges that are far greater than the uncertainty they think they're facing. They just forget. And so part of our role is to remind people of how they've navigated challenge and change before, yeah, and how many times people know more about the uncertainty than they think. Totally. They just need someone to talk it through.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

I think they're all woven together. We are systems thinkers, so it is hard for us to think and parcel out components, but we have found that our clients were asking for for some different language, for some different different approaches. Right. And what we did was we began to redefine some of the components so that we could put the the concepts of challenge, change, and uncertainty back together and help help our the leaders that we're working with have some handles to lead better, lead smarter, lead from uh a more grounded place.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

Nathan, I'm gonna kind of put you on the spot here because we when we're working with our the teams that that we're engaged with, we will often ask them to think of a a challenge. And one of the unique metaphors that often comes up is going on a hike. Now, a hike is something that I know you do, Nathan, with your family. Yeah. And what I want to ask you is how does this metaphor of going on a hike reflect challenge that we have the capacity to do it? We may have to take a rest break every now and again, but we're gonna make it there and back. And it is just a challenge. There's nothing that we have to really change.

SPEAKER_02 11:57

Yeah. So I mean, hiking with kids is always a challenge. And part of my job as a parent is like, we've done this distance before, we've done this hike before, you can do it. Here's a gummy bear every every half mile or something. And it's like, we can do this, we've done it before. It's just as a quote unquote leader, it's my job to just kind of recast the vision, remind them of the you know, lunch at the end of the proverbial tunnel that you're gonna have. It's like we can do this, we just gotta get through it. It's gonna be hard work, you just have to go and you have to do it.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

Right. And have you ever left the kid behind? Not for too long. Right, right. But they have the ability to do it, right? Yes, absolutely. And that's the point is a challenge is something where we have a goal. We we can almost like see the place that that we're going. It could be a journey, it could be a pilgrimage, it could be an adventure, but we know we just have this awareness that there's nothing in this challenge that's going to test me beyond my capacity. Correct.

SPEAKER_00 13:01

And Nathan, I've never heard this. I keep giggling, lunch at the end of the tunnel.

SPEAKER_02 13:05

Lunch at the end of the tunnel.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

I mean, whatever motivates your children.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

I mean, right? Whatever, you know, lunch, ice cream. Sometimes if we're hiking down to the coast, yeah. It's the lunch roll. So we went hiking this past weekend out on the Oregon coast with there's 15 of us. It was both of my brothers and all of our kids and significant others. And the hike that we were going to do was closed, and so we had to pivot to a new hike. And so we're looking at it on the the all trails app. It's like, okay, we can do this, it's about the distance that we like. It's it's you know, seems good terrain. And so we were hiking, and it's supposed to be a mile and a half out and back, right? So three quarters of a mile out, three quarters of a mile back. At like the 40-minute mark, when we hadn't seen any kind of turnaround or anything, we're like, what is going on? And so there's this tremendous level of uncertainty. I don't know where we're going. Do we turn around? Do we do we completely change and pivot our plans? And so there's this sense of like, I think we just gotta push through this proverbial fog and keep going. And it was really this idea of like, let's just let go, let's adapt, let's see where we're gonna end up, and without having any idea of what came next, because we'd never done that hike before. So we just we made it through. Does that make sense? Can you use that?

SPEAKER_01 14:30

Absolutely, because what I think you're illustrating, Nathan, is why we embrace challenges in the first place. Because challenges, they reinforce our abilities. Challenges remind us that we could we have the attitudinal fortitude to make it through something. Challenges remind us that we have the emotional strength. Challenges simply remind us that we have these skills and capacities to make progress through life. And that's why challenges are so important because I really believe that when individuals in teams remind themselves of how they've successfully navigated challenges, they can begin to build the strength and stamina needed to face changes, which we would say are very different than a challenge.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

Yeah, and not necessarily the strength, but the language and the narrative around it. We have found when leaders can name some of those challenges or how they made it through their hike, but they tap when leaders can can be reminded of how they've navigated a challenge, they realize, wow, I'm creative. I have these problem solving skills, and like I can rely on myself. I have some insights and I have some capacity, and when I tell that story again, and when I go on my next hike or do something hard at work, I can draw upon those same principles.

SPEAKER_02 15:59

I have one child who is either the best hiker or the worst hiker. There's not a lot of like in between. And I am tapped to my limits as a leader in this scenario. And I need what you just said, Linda, I need to remind myself of how like when it's been good, here's what I have done, and when it's been bad, here's what I have done. And how do I remind myself that these are the leadership skills I need to employ to motivate this employee, to motivate this person to keep going when there is tremendous uncertainty, when not even I know how far how much farther is it? How much farther is it? I have no idea. My phone's not working, I've never done this before. We're all gonna die. No, we're gonna make it. You just gotta keep moving forward. So let's talk more about change. So the hike, we had to do this one change, we had really our heart set on it, and then we had to change to do something else. Yes. There's kind of a like a letting go, there's a little bit of a loss there.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 16:57

Bring this back to the business leadership setting for us.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

Oftentimes challenges are just the precursor to change. Because sometimes when you get to the end of the challenge, you realize now we have to pivot and go in a different direction. I think that with change, it is this understanding that a new action is about to take place and that we have to prepare ourselves for that. Sometimes that preparation for change is recognizing that we may have to let go of some of the capacities that have helped us navigate through challenge and to recognize that change is very dynamic. Leaders that understand the change process, that's one dimension. But one of the things that we bring up when talking to teams about change, especially in the midst of uncertainty, is that change is much like seasons of the year. We know that these seasons are coming. There's a distinct period of change in between each season, and each season has a distinct purpose and reason. And what's important to remember is that when we're facing change on a team, each individual member of the team may be in a different metaphorical season of change or season of capacity for their change. So one of the things that we ask teams to do is to begin to think about their own readiness for the change at hand. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

And it's surprising, even some of the least intuitive of some of the participants will say things like, I'm in winter, I've been in winter, it is still dark. Totally theirs. There is not enough light, or there are people that are saying, I'm in fall. I am in the autumn where leaves are falling and I'm trying to staple them back on the tree quick, or you know, pause enough to be thankful for the colors, but I'm I'm afraid of what's happening next.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

And part of this metaphor that we use with seasons is to help leaders and teams recognize that when we're facing change, there may be a seasonality to the nature of how change is approached. For example, at the beginning of change, that could represent the spring. There's a time when changes really come to life that could be represented by the summer. Then there's this period of letting some of the changes go because we're going to be taking a stance of letting something hibernate. And then there's also a period of resting from change. And I feel that right now, people often ignore the importance of the winter of change, and that is the time of year where there is a sense of relaxation and rejuvenation and rest before the next spring is coming. And I know that there are leaders that we work with that are sensitive to that need for a break. I also know that the people, the people that we work with often have high expectations of themselves and often forget that they need seasons of rest and rejuvenation.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

And we've sought to enter the change conversation, not from a change management perspective. I think when people hear the word change, they all and they think about work. There's almost this like, okay, then what do we need to do and what stage are we at? And we're inviting leaders to look a little bit deeper, a deeper into who they are, how they're wired, what where they secretly come to life during change, and which seasons are most invigorating to them, which seasons, you know, maybe the no one else sees the growth, but in winter that's when the growth is actually happening and the the the reflection and the introspection that is coming. We've sought to interrupt the conversation and the unchanged thinking about change to get people to look from a different perspective and begin to wonder where am I most helpful in change and what kind of change is happening to me now, and what season am I in to be able to even have more or less capacity to face it.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

And why this is important is because I want to remind us that we are in a conversation about challenge, change, and uncertainty. And we have placed change in the middle of this conversation because we want to introduce change as an intentional pivot, an intentional pivot in how we are thinking about uncertainty. Change is a time to remember the challenges that we have gone through, and change is the opportunity to ask ourselves what type of intentional interruption do we need to introduce into this time to face the uncertainty that's ahead of us. We are asking for change to represent a looking over your shoulder and to ask yourself what season am I in, what challenges have prepared me for this, and a looking forward to the uncertainty and to ask yourself what type of change of behavior do I need to introduce? Is there a change of attitude? Maybe there's a change of relationships because something needs to change in order to face the uncertainty. So we want to be reminded that there's a direct relationship between change and uncertainty. The assumption that many people make is that the way to face and navigate uncertainty is to continue as we are. And what we're saying is, let's just press pause and ask: are we ready? Is it the right season? Do we have the right equipment and tools and relationships and emotional well-being necessary for the uncertainty that we're facing?

SPEAKER_00 22:38

And some of the teams that we're working with right now and have been working with for the past couple years, they had the right leadership with the right foresight that there was something happening that was going to challenge their capacity to navigate uncertainty. And what they did in response, what these teams that I'm thinking about in particular, what they did in response was they prepared for that uncertainty by creating a variety of solutions that could be enacted. So they were changing their mindset about things, they were changing habits and behaviors, they were changing practices, they were even changing some people and giving some other leaders a chance. And some of the organizations that we're working with now that the wave of uncertainty is coming, they're ready and they have like, well, we'll pick this one and we'll pick that change and we will face this uncertainty together because maybe we're stronger or more skilled or ready for what's ahead?

SPEAKER_02 23:41

It seems like uncertainty is the one ripe with the most anxiety and stress. We've talked many times about how as humans we want predictability, we want to know what comes next. So how do you lead people through that? Because often you can't give people certainty. So what can you give them in uncertainty? When all you can see is the fog in front of you. How do you give them hope, I guess, is that what we're looking for? What are we trying to do in uncertainty, I guess? Or what's the outcome besides certainty?

SPEAKER_01 24:15

Well, this is an interesting one because when we're working with our clients, we're anticipating a slide that we're showing to introduce uncertainty. And the image that we selected is this heavy, heavy fog that is resting over something surrounded by mountains. And all you can see is maybe the the top of a smokestack or the red light of some kind of beacon somewhere, and maybe some outlines of some buildings. When you first see it, you don't think you quote see anything. And so the first step in uncertainty is we're asking people, like we do with this image, just name what you can see. Just name it. Because oftentimes, once people begin looking at the uncertainty of this dense fog, they begin to see more than they thought they did when they first saw it. And so oftentimes there'll be a hesitation, like someone will say, like we'll ask, What do you see? There'll be a pause and we sit there and wait for it, and someone will say, fog. Yep, that's a great start. That's the first thing. And then the conversation unfolds. The point is when a team or an organization is facing what they feel is this insurmountable uncertainty, begin by naming what we can see. Begin by identifying what we do know, begin by looking around at the people that are with us. Because I I believe that the beginning step in facing uncertainty is naming the known and the tangible, what we do have to face it.

SPEAKER_02 25:53

Brian, I think that's so interesting because sometimes, like if you're in a group looking at fog, I'm thinking everybody else knows what's beyond this fog except for me. And so to say, oh, none of us know? Whew, oh, that makes me feel better. All right. Now how do we approach this? Do you do you find that to be true?

SPEAKER_00 26:12

Many variations of yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 26:14

Many of many variations of truth.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

Yeah, because then it's like, oh yeah, me too. And then people are like, no, I would never even look at that.

SPEAKER_02 26:21

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

And oftentimes the diversity of perspective actually drives a different kind of solutioning, as we know.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

And so what we ask participants is several questions because everyone like Nathan, like you said, some people think they're the only ones that see things a certain way, or they're the only ones with certain needs. And so at this point, we really begin to ask people some specific questions to create a sense of camaraderie that one, we are in this together, two, we all have questions, and three, we are being asked to navigate the uncertainty together. So, what we ask people is we first of all ask them when you're facing uncertainty, what do you need to understand? Some people may need to understand maybe the direction that we're headed. Maybe they need to understand the first three or four steps, or just who is gonna go through the fog with them. The second question that we ask is, what do you need to commit? There are many different answers to that question as well, because some people may just need to know that they've got a handful of gummies, like you said, Nathan, to commit to, you know, stepping into the fog. There may be others that need to know what the budget or the timeline is or some types of certainties in order for them to commit. A third question we ask is what do you need to adjust? And the idea there is what do you need to adjust to begin journeying into the fog? And we are always surprised by the answers to this because some people realize they don't need to really adjust much because they're just willing. And there are others who would need to say, I need time to adjust to the idea. And I oftentimes say, I need to adjust my attitude, because my attitude often is what gets in the way of me taking that first few steps forward.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

No comment.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

No comment.

SPEAKER_00 28:10

And those three questions are important because those three questions of what do you need to understand, commit, and adjust in the context of uncertainty, begin to really do that introspection, that looking inside to see what is it that I'm made of? What do I really know? Like, how do I get my mind and my heart around this? Because the real important question is the fourth one, which is how can you take action? Now that you've done the introspection of these three components, they're wildly different than maybe your teammates, they're wildly different than the rest of the organization. Knowing what you know and knowing what you know inside, how will you take action? How will your team take action to not just be stuck in the fog of uncertainty?

SPEAKER_02 28:58

That's really good. That's really good. Well, Brian and Linda, thank you. I have a final reflection I want you to respond to. Okay. And we'll see if this is anything. So, leaders, as you're listening to this, as you head back into your work this week, I want you to ask yourself, what am I, and maybe more specifically, what is my team, actually dealing with? Is it a challenge to grow through, a change to adapt to, or an uncertainty to navigate? And so my question is, Brian Linda, is identifying that, is that the first step to making it through whatever it is, just knowing which one it is?

SPEAKER_01 29:35

Yes. I believe that the astute leader asks themselves that question in an ongoing way. Sure. Is this a challenge? Is this a change? Is this an uncertainty? Because if they know the answers to those questions, then they will know how they themselves are going to lead and motivate their team and what professional and emotional needs their teams will be having. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

And after you've named that question, how will you take action? And maybe not the specifics of how, but let your actions be infused with courage, compassion, and confidence.

SPEAKER_02 30:20

Thank you for listening to the Leadership Vision Podcast, our show helping you build positive team culture. To learn more about what we do, you can click the link in the show notes or visit us on the web at Leadership Vision Consulting.com. And if you found value from this episode or any of our other resources, please follow us wherever you get your podcast. Follow us, like us, subscribe to us on YouTube and all the socials, or you can sign up for our free email newsletter at Leadership Vision Consulting.comslash subscribe. My name is Nathan Freeberg. I'm Linda Schubring. And I'm Brian Schubring. And on behalf of our entire team, thanks for listening.