Why Struggle Is Essential to Real Growth in Leadership

In this episode, Nathan Freeburg is joined by Dr. Linda and Brian Schubring to explore the role of struggle and discomfort in the learning process. We discuss how leaders can recognize learning moments, support individuals with different learning styles, and create environments where growth is possible—even when it feels difficult. The episode also highlights the importance of reflection and the role of unlearning in long-term development.

If you’re leading a team through change or navigating your own growth, this episode offers practical insights and thoughtful questions to guide your next steps.

Transcript

Why Learning Feels So Hard

SPEAKER_01 0:00

You are listening to the Leadership Vision Podcast, our show helping you build positive team culture. I'm your host, Nathan Freeberg, and I want you to think back on a time when you tried to learn something new. Perhaps it was an instrument, a new hobby, maybe cooking a new recipe, whatever it was, often the early stages of that learning may have felt a little bumpy. Now, one of my daughters started playing the piano about a year ago, and at first, well, it was rough, but over time with practice, she's improved quite a bit to the point where she can read music pretty well and she has a recital coming up here this spring. At first, there's excitement, a new idea, a new initiative, new energy, but then reality sets in. The work gets harder, progress slows, and that's when people start to wonder if they're doing it right. Now, research shows that this is the point where people are most likely to disengage, not because they lack ability, but because the discomfort of learning can feel like failure. And this is where leadership matters most. Leaders help teams interpret what they're experiencing. Is this struggle a sign that something is wrong, or is it a normal part of growth? Because when leaders normalize the learning process, people are far more likely to stay engaged and push through it. But when that discomfort is met with pressure or frustration, teams often fall back to what's familiar. So with that in mind, I want to explore this idea of struggle and discomfort in learning with Dr. Linda and Brian Schubring as we all attempt to stay engaged with our work, even when it's hard. Good morning, Freewood. We're good.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

Top of the day to you.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Top of the day. Hey, would you guys want to fly out to Portland on April 12th and go to my daughter's piano recital?

SPEAKER_00 1:47

That would be so fun.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Yeah, that'd be great.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Yeah. I gotta tell you, it's been really fun watching her journey as she went from reading zero music and now she can read music and now she can actually make music. And it's been really fun. And what was cool is that she first learned how to play a song from Frozen, and now she's for her recital piece, is a very simplified version of a song from The Greatest Showman. If you've seen that musical. Yes. And what's so fun watching her is like, you know, it was hard, she didn't get it, she didn't get it. But as soon as she could kind of recognize the tune, it like was like this little success marker that kind of helped her push through that initial discomfort of, I don't know these notes, I don't know these chords, I don't know how to do this. And it was like this motivating thing to get her to hopefully in a couple weeks here to actually be able to perform that. Have you ever seen something like that with teams where like when a team is struggling through the discomfort of learning something new? Like, what have you seen the best of the best leaders do to kind of help them stay engaged through that, like, oh, I can't do this, this is hard, to actually like get past that and help them not get discouraged?

What Strong Leaders Notice First

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Well, some of the best of the best leaders don't stay engaged, they're actually true to their own process, right? So there's the the initial like, I don't like it, you can tell on people's faces. Are we gonna be good at this? Is this a waste of time? Will this give us some return on an investment eventually? And so usually it's not just like come and get engaged and stay engaged, it's recognizing, okay, this is a learning opportunity, and usually that shape shifts, but only after they're able to name the either the emotions or the initial gut reactions that will keep them distanced from whatever they may have to learn.

SPEAKER_02 3:40

That's good. I know the reason why I said that is because I have experienced great leaders who actually name the opportunity that's in front of people to learn. Many people aren't looking forward to learning something new, as weird as that may sound, because learning something new means you're disrupting a certain pattern of behavior that's happening right now. But for a leader to say this is an opportunity for us to learn and then begin to paint a picture of what it is that we're learning, that tends to free people up to be willing to learn. So leaders recognize the moments of learning, when they're happening, and how people can rally around that opportunity to learn something new.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

So then obviously it's probably answered. It is it is the leader. So how, like when a leader says, We're gonna learn this new thing, this new piece of software, this new way of doing business, this new whatever, do they do the best ones gamify it? Do they have a real, you know, like have a party to launch this thing? Like, how do you, when it's just something you gotta do, how do you help people get over that hump of like, this is so hard, let's just go back to the old way. At least we know that one.

Learning Cultures Beyond The Leader

SPEAKER_02 4:58

Well, I don't want to put all the responsibility on the leader because we work with plenty of teams that have learners that are embedded in the team. These are the individuals who seem to maybe be tinkering with something or they're reading something or they're experimenting in some way or another with whatever they're they're working on. That's the demonstration that they're learning something. There are oftentimes people on teams who are struggling, they're perceived as the ones that are struggling, and sometimes that struggling is because they're learning something new for the challenge that they're they're facing. Now back to the leader. Is the leader aware enough to be able to understand or to be able to recognize when someone's learning, then the leader asks themselves, what is the learning opportunity that's there? So, on one hand, I feel that leaders create environments where learning can take place. I also believe that there are leaders that are great observers of the learning that's actually happening, and leaders are also learners, like they're on a consistent journey in a quest to learn. Yeah. Hopefully.

SPEAKER_00 6:08

I think of some of the intuitive leaders that we work with, and when I watch them, there's often this sense of they know that something has to change. And the old adage, like grow or die, change or die. Like part of part right now, I think is a learn or die. Like learn or be eaten or left behind. So when I think of these intuitive learners, they instinctively know that they have to learn something and they they may not have the answers yet. Some leaders learn and then they teach and then they help everyone else learn. And I think when once again, some of these leaders that I'm thinking about, they just know we all have to learn something. We're gonna come up with a better solution from the collective. So, how do we link arms and stay in this and hold each other accountable in this learning so that we can get to the places that we want to go, either in in business or in their industry?

SPEAKER_02 7:12

Also to recognize that like with your daughter, Nathan, the the beginning is often a challenge on its own. The the beginning of the learning process, there's some speed bumps along the way because when people get excited to learn something new, they're doing that, they're getting excited. The initial struggle is often challenging. And then, like you said, the but then when we recognize the tune of our learning, then it begins to build its own momentum. And what I really believe when it comes to individuals is that there's a unique awakening in people, uh unique brightening to people's personalities when they're in a learning mode. And the same thing also happens on a team. When a team is learning something together, it's a unique connective activity that's creating a relational bond that doesn't happen when you aren't learning together.

Learning Styles And Finding Your Tune

SPEAKER_01 8:09

Yeah. You know what else doesn't create a good emotional bond is when the leader is like, oh, this is easy, you just do this, and they like dismiss whatever that person is struggling through. I think that can create walls, barriers. If the leader is the expert, the quote unquote know-it-all, how do you help them? Because from a leader's perspective, this new thing is like, oh, this is easy, this is simple. You just have to do da da da da da dot. But that person might not have those skills yet, might have a totally different learning style. Like, how can a leader be self-aware enough to sit on their hands and sort of help this person engage in a way that might be totally different from how they learned it?

SPEAKER_00 8:50

My initial response to you, Nathan, is that some of those leaders don't want to grow. So they're not someone that's arrived, they're already just gonna do it, and then they you put in a change management process and just go. The the leaders that want to learn and model the way of what it looks like to learn that's where I think the main the main trait is curiosity. The main trait is this openness to what are some of the new ideas? I've learned this, but how do we push the whole of our learning? I've I mean I and I want to go back to something, Brian, you said about the tune of how I want to hear that because this may have to do with the unique ways that people learn. So instead of you know fixing the people that don't want to grow or the ones that think that they've already arrived.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

I think you said recognize the tune of your own learning.

SPEAKER_00 9:44

Oh, that's good.

SPEAKER_02 9:45

So recognize the tune of your own learning. And what I'm hinting at there is you know, our approach is an approach that invites people to reflect on their unique identity. Part of that unique identity is the way that you learn. Each one of us have different learning styles, we have different learning zones, we have different learning partnerships, we have different learning experiences and in different environments where learning is unique to us. When all of those elements or a lot of them come together, we are in tune with our own learning. Just as we are all unique individuals in how we think and how we feel and how we are inspired, so too are we unique in learning. Now, Nathan, you know, back to what you were saying about leaders' awareness of how their individuals and the teams learn, that's key. I believe that part of a leader's role is to understand what are those early formative stepping stones in someone's process of learning. How do we invite individuals to take those first few steps on their own so that they can join in the momentum of learning that happens in a community of learners?

SPEAKER_00 10:58

So, for example, we worked with a leadership team over the course of a year. We would meet with them every two months for an entire day and a half. And that investment was on purpose because some of the things that need they needed to do as a team was to learn their own voices and learn their collective voice and be able to face some big and scary realities and lead with grace and and presence. And they did it. And when we reviewed the learning process of what they learned every two months at the end of a year, we started to hear things like, I loved this session, and this was why this is what I learned. Actually, after this session, I wanted to quit, or I needed to take a break, or I really didn't like that at all. And what we were learning from the collective was there wasn't this group think around. Instead, it was these were the points where I was really open to learning, these were the points where I stepped back a little bit, these were some of the areas where like my learning was more engaged, and some people, some people had very different perspectives, like I liked it until this. And and it wasn't an evaluation of us necessarily. We were inviting them to evaluate where they have come, what did they have they learned about their team dynamics and their team cohesion.

SPEAKER_02 12:18

So it's important to recognize when the opportunities for learning have arrived. It's also important to invite people to engage learning that in a style that is unique to them. And like Linda's saying, it is really important for teams and individuals to spend time reflecting on how much they've learned because because in that reflection, they will often realize how much progress they've made individually and collectively. Sometimes the learning isn't noticeable until it's time to mow the yard. It's like we don't sit around and watch our grass grow. We only notice how much it's grown when the grass is mowed. And so when it comes to teams, teams that are learning are teams that are growing, and it's often an unrecognized growth. So creating moments of reflection is important for to remind ourselves of how we're growing and how we're growing in unique and new ways.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

I think with children, I think there's usually a faster uptake and a greater curiosity, and if they build a little bit of skill, they can build on that and eventually play all the songs that they want to on the piano, perhaps, or not. Anyway.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

At the airport with their dad.

Reflection, Growth Markers, And Closing

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Or at the airport with their dad, and their dad is playing the piano, Nathan. With adults, it is the action and reflection that Brian is naming. It is the adults need that moment of pause to realize, okay, we see the grass growing, we're gonna anticipate getting out the lawnmower. This is this is what that means. The the moments of reflection don't have to be days and a half long. It can be rather just this pause and momentary, okay, look around and see where we come from, what do I need to learn, what do I need to grow in this area, and who's learning around me.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

Well, maybe just to kind of close things up here, final thought or comment if you want, but I've it seems like there's sort of this idea of I'm learning something new here, you know, a piano piece, the music is easy to say, but you know, okay, we're we've been asked to learn this new software, let's say. It's gonna change how we do billing, whatever, blah, blah, blah. But then there's just the continuous learning that you've both talked about through every element or aspect of our lives. And I think sometimes we can get really complacent in just that normal stuff when we perhaps should be asking ourselves, well, how do I grow in this area? And when maybe I don't, like no one's asking me to grow in that area or you know, become become better or more proficient. The title of this, you know, struggle and discomfort and learning, like those, those three words go together, right? Struggle, discomfort, and learning. Like you can't have, you can't get to learning without struggle and discomfort, right?

SPEAKER_02 15:12

And I would ask people to, with that last statement in mind, Nathan, to be like one takeaway for me is to ask people to spend time reflecting on what they're learning right now. Name the parts that have been a struggle, name what's challenging, also name the joy, the life, and the energy that's coming from learning. Because when we remind ourselves of how it is that we engage the learning process, not only are we more willing to learn something new, but we're also able to recognize learning more quickly.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

I would add that learning is not additive. Learning, maybe degrees are additive. You can get a degree in many different subjects and demonstrate your learning. A lot of the time, the the way that we see learning in context is that that people are changing their mind and they're changing their approach, and sometimes they outgrow some of the things that they've learned. And that for us is the actual marker of growth, is that people are demonstrating this willingness to change their mind, willingness to learn new things, and not just be pulled into the past, but pulled into the future.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

Well, Brian and Linda, thank you so much. I hope that this episode has caused all of us to pause and think about what we're learning right now, to think about if you're learning with someone, to think about your learning style. So thank you for listening to the Leadership Vision Podcast, our show helping you build positive team culture. If you would like to subscribe, you can go to Leadership Vision Consulting.com slash subscribe. There's a link in the show notes. Also, review our podcast wherever you get your podcast. Follow us in all the socials and YouTube and all of that great stuff. My name is Nathan Freeberg. I'm Linda Schuberg.

SPEAKER_02 17:01

I'm Brian Schubring.

SPEAKER_01 17:02

And on behalf of our entire team, thanks for listening.